It's one ting to say that pharmacies should advertise the availability of boosters. It's something else to actually get them. At Walgreens I asked for a booster and was told I needed to book an appointment. So I asked to book an appointment and was told it could only be done online. Well, that lets out a lot of older people and anyone else who's not computer savvy. Nor was the online experience a cakewalk. The appointment software redirects to a CDC site that explains availability, which is both complicated and ambiguous. The only way it would book me is if I marked the box for immunocompromised. That seems to be their term of art for being over 65, but elsewhere on the site it says you qualify if you're over 12 and it's been more than three months or something since your last injection. In short, if pharmacies would just book you when you're standing there in person, the system would work. Their wooden insistence on online booking is a needless and sometimes insurmountable barrier.
I think part of the issue is that the public health messaging is so contradictory and difficult to digest. For two years, we were told to "follow the CDC" re: masking. But now, public health experts are telling us that the CDC isn't handling covid and the vaccine campaign effectively or properly. People don't know who to trust, and we (because I include myself) are confused about when the booster would be best for us, particularly if we have hybrid immunity.
I haven't had covid, and I had my bivalent booster in September. But my child (who is age 11 and boosted in May) had covid in late July. Actually, today is her 90-day mark post-infection. But some people are saying she should wait another few months to get the maximum benefit from the bivalent booster.... but she had a very mild covid infection, so I am also reading that some people who have very mild cases don't build as much immunity.
All the experts contradict each other (even people whom I trust very much) and it's nearly impossible to know the right thing to do. I want to get my child her bivalent, but I also want to time it right.
I wish everyone would get on the same page and set forth some bright-line guidance for when people should get their boosters. I think the lack of straightforward messaging on this is making a lot of people hesitant to move forward.
Doctors at the Baylor system are being told at presentations that the additional booster is superfluous and that as long as they have three shots they have all the protection they need. I am disheartened by the medical community getting subpar advice. They then go and tell non medical personnel not to bother getting the shot. So there are forces within the medical community working against booster uptake.
With respect to Drs Siegel and Rosenberg, the lack of interest in boosters and childhood covid vaccines isn't due to lack of motivation, eligibility questions, or focused engagement.
The lack of enthusiasm is directly correlated to the perceived lack of benefit.
To the general population a vaccine means "you can't get that thing anymore". This is why we have successfully convinced people to get the vaccines which work - it was self-evident that the thing you were vaccinating against - whether it's polio, measles, or chickenpox went away after you got vaccinated.
If the varicella vaccine didn't reduce odds of getting chickenpox, and only lowered odds of being hospitalized (which are close to zero for children anyway), Drs Siegel and Rosenberg would have had a much harder time increasing routine immunization in Marin County.
Katelyn has been one of the few voices from the beginning pointing out this wasn't a sterilizing vaccine and reminding readers we didn't have enough information on impact of transmission, and for that she should be commended.
Yet Public Health did not present that message. The message was clear and unambiguous - get the vaccine and you can't get covid. Just like lay people would expect of any vaccine. Whether it was Fauci [1], Rachel Maddow [2], the CEO of Pfizer [3], Stephen Colbert [4], or the CDC [5], the message was continuously amplified from all directions - Covid vaccines stop Covid. This was how there was support for business and school vaccine mandates for covid shots - the public believed that herd immunity was in sight thanks to the vaccine.
That is not the case.
Having a Covid vaccine appears to have no correlation to the odds of getting Covid [6].
Walensky getting Covid exactly one month after she got her bivalent booster is just the latest in a string of bad PR for the vaccine and boosters following the repeated high-profile infections for Bourla, Colbert, Fauci, and the Bidens this past year.
Not to mention for many, the vaccine made people sick. Just look at all the schools which had to close because too many teachers fell ill immediately after vaccines. [7] My social media was flooded with friends and family acknowledging how horrible they felt after the first or second dose, but taking comfort how worth it will be knowing they can't get covid anymore. (I'd estimate roughly 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 people in my friend group/family got knocked down a day or two post dose 1 or 2)
For them to go through that and still get Covid anyway - often making them feel terrible yet again - makes it hard to dismiss their reluctance to go through 3rd, 4th, or 5th shot as "antivaxx".
The erosion of confidence by the public at large in the vaccine efficacy is clearly why we have millions of soon to expire shots few are taking. To ignore this feels like sticking our heads in the sand.
[6] Just look at every highly vaccinated state or country which exploded in covid cases regardless of being leaders in vaccination rates (Denmark, South Korea, Japan, Vermont, California, Australia, etc) - it's hard to reconcile high level country level results with a CDC published case control study claiming otherwise
With the latest variants, the vaccine no longer protects one from catching it but greatly reduces the odds of severe illness and death.
Yes, people sometimes have reactions for a couple days following the vaccine, but chances of severe or long-lasting effects are vanishingly small. Whereas catching covid when unvaccinated is a considerably larger threat to health.
Citing twitter as sources does not lend much confidence in your arguments.
Last time I posted on FB, a friend of mine posted in response. She has a school-aged son and had a bad inflammation reaction to the second Moderna shot. While the rest of her family has continued receiving vaccines, she was frustrated that it's less talked about who *shouldn't* get the vaccines. We both agreed that public health is HARD because many more people just need to hear that they *should* get it. In Europe they are more specific (e.g., "Hey if you're at risk for myocarditis, talk with your dr or maybe prioritize getting Pfizer instead of Moderna"). On the one hand, that seems to sow doubt, but on the other hand, as my friend pointed out, if the experts don't acknowledge the problems of the vaccine, people will look at less reliable sources and possibly fall down conspiracy theory rabbit holes.
I can see an advantage to being open about who shouldn't get the vaccine, too. If the posters in CVS, say, displayed "Should you get the fall booster? - If you had an unusual reaction to a previous booster, talk to your doctor first. - If you're a male under age 29 [or whatever] with no extra risk factors, talk to your doctor first. - If you received another covid vaccine or had a covid infection in the last 90 days, wait until three months is up." The implication being, if you *don't* fall into one of those three categories, step right up!
Bringing the vaccines to people rather than having the people come to the vaccines is also quite successful. As a health department, we go on the road...to farms, to assisted living, to workplaces...we bring the vaccine, and quite a lot of people get one. We bring flu shots, and quite a lot of people get both. Thank you for introducing me to the IIFF Model though.
The storage requirements were adjusted. They really aren’t extreme anymore. In my area, doctor and pediatrician offices have no interest in offering the COVID vaccines. I don’t know if it’s due to the complexity of the products, lack of staff/bandwidth to handle the administration or what. Our ped office offered them at first then promptly stopped and never offered them again.
I do think the power of the primary care provider for vaccine confidence is important. We do make actual house calls for homebound people wanting vaccines in addition to going to community sites. I was working in the hospital in 2021 so not sure what their outreach was at that point, although I know they were doing huge community PODs.
I initially had a favorable attitude toward the mRNA vaccines, but I have had extended systemic reactions to all 3 of the doses I got, and I no longer trust that technology. So I've been waiting patiently for the Novavax vaccine - but now I've read that if you've already had one mRNA booster, you cannot get the Novavax booster! WTF! Those of us with autoimmune diseases (who are NOT on immunosuppressive drugs) and those of us with on-going Chronic Fatigue (ME/CFS) from herpes-family viruses have been systematically gaslighted by the medical establishment for decades. I'm losing hope.
I'm an ME/CFS patient, too, and vaccines tend to hit me hard. Flu shots usually leave me dragged out for three weeks, although one that I got in 2017 sent me into relapse for months. The mRNA COVID shots gave me fever and chills for about a day, and relapse for 2-3 weeks, but I suspect that the COVID virus would have been even worse. I considered Novavax, but decided it was unlikely to provide the protection I wanted.
On the good side, my bivalent vaccine didn't hit me quite as hard as the first four did. But this year's flu shot landed me on my butt for a week. I did not get both at the same time.
Dr. Klimas recommends anti-oxidant supplements and anti-histamines at time of vaccine, which did seem to help.
Generally I've done OK with the flu vaccines - except last year when I got the "senior" dose, which I will never do again! Turns out that it (Fluzone HD) not only had 4 times as much of each of the viral components, it also had a huge slug of formaldehyde (which none of the other versions of the shot had). Vizient produces a report every year that provides a detailed list of the flu vaccines, with all their ingredients. See https://www.vizientinc.com/-/media/documents/sitecorepublishingdocuments/secured/solutions/pharmacy/sbs_2022_2023_fluvaccine_0222_final.pdf From now on, I am consulting their chart before I get my flu shot.
For the Novavax, one person who responded to my comment says that it is based on the S2 protein, which has not mutated. If that's true, I'm thinking it may provide some very useful protection - still trying to confirm that and figure out how I can get the shot.
Good luck to you too! Do you know about the HealthRising website, which is specifically focused on ME/CFS? It's excellent: https://www.healthrising.org/
Yes, Health Rising is one of my favorite information sources. I subscribe to their newsletter. Cort Johnson is amazing.
As for the flu shot, I've been getting the senior dose because the lower dose wasn't giving me protection, but I wasn't aware of the formaldehyde. Thanks for that info.
I had a good day yesterday, so I bought groceries. Even though I used a scooter, today I feel like I died and went to hell. Oh, well, this too shall pass, and at least there are groceries in the house. The joys of living with ME/CFS!
This year's Vizient table indicates that FluBlok has 45 mcg of each virus (Fluzone HD has 60, regular vaccines have 15) - AND it has no formaldehyde (or mercury either, which FluzoneHD also has). As an aside, for my FM/CFS, I've been having positive improvement on the ubiquinol + NADH combination.
Very interesting about the Flublok. Have you tried it yet? I will consider it for next year.
I take a number of supplements for my CFS, including CoQ-10 and L-carnitine, but it's been a while since I tried NADH. Probably should give it another try.
Famvir worked wonders for me in 2010, but the benefits only lasted a year and a half. Tried it again since then, but no benefit. Tried several other things, too, including low-dose naltrexone, high-dose Vit B1, etc. without much benefit.
I'm in Michigan, but flew to California in 2018 to provide blood and hair samples for Ron Davis's research. He's pretty amazing, and highly motivated due to his son's severe ME/CFS.
After my experience last year with a very nasty reaction to the FluzoneHD, coupled with my body's tendency to over-react to everything, I've decided to go back to regular-dose flu shots, so I just got the Afluria shot today. May get a second dose of that one in another 4-6 weeks if the flu season turns out to be a bad one.
I think I've heard that, with more time to work on mRNA vaccines, they're hoping to dial down their reactogenicity now. During emergency manufacture of an unprecedented vaccine, ensuring it works is a much higher priority than ensuring it's comfortable, so initial formulations might be far more reactogenic than is necessary, with reactogenicity dropping as they get the hang of mRNA vaccine craft.
COVID mRNA vaccines have been pretty hard on the EDS (Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome) community, too -- but also worth it, considering how hard facing COVID unprotected would be.
I have EDS, asthma, and hay fever, and have been so sick since September started, first from ragweed, leading to escalating colds, finally ending in a chest cold provoking a spectacularly feverish sinus infection, but I kept hoping I'd get better before getting fall vaccines. Welp.
I'm on antibiotics and prednisone now, and can still hear my lungs bubbling, but at least I haven't got fever anymore. Splitting the bivalent booster and flu vaccine looks increasingly unfeasible for me now, so I might just bite the bullet and try to get both at once before I have to start the prednisone taper... Not ideal, but less-than-ideal is better than too late. If I'm flattened after such a stunt, at least it won't change how my fall has gone.
My take on this tweet from the CDC Director is * any * adult who has been vaxed can now choose Novavax as a booster:
“If you are 18 or older, have received your primary Covid vaccine series, and have been waiting for the Novavax booster, it is now available to you.” - Rochelle Walensky
I expect the STAT article was written prior to the CDC announcement (probably 10/18) , though both are dated 10/19/2022. In any event, if the CDC says it is approved as a booster, I'd rely on that rather than the STAT article.
As for the primary series, I think it is straightforward.
For those not immunocompromised, the primary series consists of one shot of J&J, or 2 shots of Novavax, or 2 shots of either mRNA vaccine.
For those immunocompromised, the primary series consists of one shot of J&J + one shot of an mRNA vaccine, 2 shots of Novavax (only if 12 years and older; no additional shot if immunocompromised), or 3 shots of either mRNA vaccine.
Immunocompromised or not, for the primary series utilizing only one of the mRNA vaccines, the same vaccine should be used for the 2 or 3 shots.
For the immunocompromised vaccination details, see the information or graphic titled "COVID-19 vaccination guidance for people who are moderately or severely immunocompromised" farther down at the CDC website for which you provided the link.
Generally, I agree. However, based on the study at the link below, those 65+ who have had a SARS-CoV-2 infection likely would need only the primary series for those not immunocompromised. For those with no history or evidence of infection, treating those 65+ as immunocompromised (at least as it relates to the COVID-19 vaccines) does seem to be appropriate.
Perhaps, but Evusheld is demonstrating a 2.8–65X reduction (depending on how it's assessed) in neutralizing capacity against BA.4/5. Also, autoimmune diseases do not necessarily result in being immunocompromised. Finally, Evusheld can have a cross-sensitivity with the mRNA vaccines due to the structural similarity between polysorbate 80 and polyethylene glycol, so the advisability of using Evusheld would need to be assessed carefully by a physician familiar with all these factors for such a patient.
The NYT article basically said what anyone who knows Marin County already understood: vaccination rates started to climb when people perceived it as a political issue and they could use vaccination status as a way to distinguish themselves from Republicans. This is not a good solution!
Is it still true that we should wait three months to get bivalent booster after a Covid infection? All the commentary about low booster uptake seems to ignore this. My husband and I had Covid in mid September, so we plan to wait to get booster until December. We aren’t slackers!
I agree, a lot of commentary is missing this point! Yes, if I were you, I would still wait! Even if we take into account those delaying a booster because of infection, rates are still suboptimal.
I came here to ask the same question/make the same observation, having had omicron in January and booster #2 in mid-July, and keep trying to ride the wave of peaking, aiming for a mid-November bivalent.
I've also just kind of expected the bivalent to get a similar uptake reaction that the flu vaccine does--people pacing themselves based on their area, their expected interactions and probability of exposure, and the like.
I think one of the recent failures of sci-comm is speaking of the previous vaccines in absolutes ("you won't get sick") when they needed a caveat ("unless the virus evolves"). Because of that, a significant amount of people I know feel like "why should I get the bivalent booster, does it even do anything?" Related to that, one thing I've been telling people is that I've anecdotally seen (and I bookmark these if people want examples) plenty of people getting the bivalent and attending a conference masked and avoiding it. But also people getting a breakthrough by attending something unmasked, however those breakthroughs resolve much faster (3-5 days positive instead of 10-14 days).
So the messaging I'm using when friends/family bring it up is 1) it's not perfect but it definitely helps 2) combine it with a mask in crowded indoor spaces and they're a formidable shield together 3) if you do get a breakthrough, it hugely cuts down on time/severity.
Anyone here have other messaging that works better? Or further anecdotal evidence about how well the bivalent is holding up?
My moms good friend got all his shots and has diabetes and got a bad case of COVID but not hospitalized. That continues to make her think vaccines don't work, so I have to keep reminding her every time she mentions it I say, "thank goodness he had the vaccines otherwise he would have been in the hospital". Then they just went on a cruise (four of them) and they all got COVID and surprisingly she was only sick for two days but tested positive for a week - she only had the two initial shots, 75 years old with pulmonary condition and I told her "grateful you got the vaccine as it could have been much worse". I also have to keep reminding her that the vaccines just like the flu shot are not meant to prevent infection but meant to keep you from getting severe, hospitalized, death from it. She only got the two initial shots so she wouldn' t be restricted from activities, etc . She didn't even know of the booster or bivalent until I mentioned my daughter and I were getting it.
A friend of mine had a severe reaction to Moderna #2 (it's meant to cause an inflammation response, but it made her plantar fasciitis so bad she couldn't walk and took her nearly a year to fully recover). She hasn't had further vaccines, but her family has all kept up. I understand that! She probably would have had a bad time with covid too, but they're hoping that keeping her family vaxxed will make her getting it less likely. SO my point is, absolutely put in a call to your doc and ask about the risk/benefit. Despite the vaccine reaction, maybe it would be worse to get covid, or maybe you're better off resting on your laurels.
I actually got covid right after this.BTW It was not as bad as the reactions to the previous boosters. I had good intentions of getting booster, I just waited (mammogram coming up) and Covid happened.
Herd immunity has been a failed strategy with coronavirus. Vaccination for corona must now be considered a personal risk/benefit decision, and always should have been. It’s no different from the public health approach to smoking - ultimately it’s an individual choice. We can give advice and setup incentive structures, but to do more than that is crossing a line into people’s personal lives that they will resent us for. People do risky things every day, always have, always will. Public health needs to move on from its one dimensional thinking - the law of diminishing returns applies.
It is discouraging that people still get covid even after getting vaccinated and boosted. Yes, the formal vaccination goal is to prevent hospitalizations and death. Even so, when people get vaccinated and then get covid anyway, and feel terrible even while at home, it seems (to them and their friends) that the vaccination failed. Maybe we could get to a better vaccine.
Agree, yet it is a stretch to say that an illness that causes one to miss work or class for a week or more is "mild" (the official language) even if one is not hospitalized. Perhaps what the vaccine can and cannot do can be presented more accurately to regular people. They are not medical experts, but they also are observant as to what happens to themselves, and their friends and neighbors. The present vaccines are a great achievement, but it's ok to hope for even better.
By focusing on what the vaccines can't do instead of what they can do is exactly why people don't get them. Yes we can hope for better, but waiting until the perfect comes along means a lot of people are going to die.
Just got the whole family Vaxxed this past week. It took longer because we had to make an appointment. I get it at our local Safeway and scheduling it took a week. Also had to make a separate appointment for each family member. I can see how someone more ambivalent than me might not get it done for a while.
How are you defining which people * currently * have "favorable attitudes" yet are "passive positives"?
There are people who * initially * had favorable attitudes. They got the primary vaccine series. Some may have even gotten one or more boosters. But why aren't they getting the latest booster? Is it simply because they lack motivation - or has their attitude changed from "favorable" to "skeptical"?
For people in the "skeptical" camp, the spectrum is wide and includes those who never got the primary series in the first place - despite mandates, (threats of) job loss and other forms of government sponsored coercion and shaming.
Now that the vaccinated-yet-skeptical group has been lumped together with the anti-vaxers, they will be met with a certain level of scorn and derision by a small yet vocal faction of "active positives," which only makes the skeptics more entrenched in their position not to get boosted.
It doesn't help that President Biden has declared that the "pandemic is over." It doesn't help that the CEO of Pfizer comes down with Covid twice in the space of a month. It doesn't help that the CDC Director gets Covid only a month after she received her bivalent booster.
I am a skeptic. An incredibly pro-vaccine skeptic. We were vaccinated as soon as eligible and boosted as soon as eligible. But, there’s no data on the efficacy of the boosters. I am not a science person, and YLE has been a lifeline for me through the pandemic. But, I also place a lot of stock in the assessment of someone like Paul Offitt, who would argue that I don’t need a second booster. I also think I would feel differently if Moderna 2 and 3 had not completely incapacitated me with the worst headache of my life and vomiting for 48 hours. I was non functional and wondered if I was having an aneurysm. My PCM says, “maybe try Pfizer, or maybe mRNA is not for you.” The sad reality is we are all learning as we go along. I have several friends, over 50, who got Covid 2-3 weeks after the bivalent booster. That does not build confidence because you cannot even make the argument that you are most/best protected for 3-4 months. What is the benefit?
Thanks for your input, and I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I, too, have come to accept being flattened by the vaccines because it beats the risks from an infection. I had read that the people most at risk from a covid infection were the people who experience a "cytokine storm." I'm a walking, talking cytokine storm (guessing you are, too) so I decided that the vaccine might make me miserable, but the infection was much more likely to kill me (or worsen my health, if that's possible, by throwing me into long covid.)
The covid vaccines that I've been getting are the Moderna shots, which I found out later are much higher dose than Pfizer, but I decided to continue with them anyway for additional protection. Last year was rough because in addition to all the covid vaccines and flu shot, I also got my two-shot regimen of Shingrix. That floored me, too, so I am grateful to have it over with.
It's one ting to say that pharmacies should advertise the availability of boosters. It's something else to actually get them. At Walgreens I asked for a booster and was told I needed to book an appointment. So I asked to book an appointment and was told it could only be done online. Well, that lets out a lot of older people and anyone else who's not computer savvy. Nor was the online experience a cakewalk. The appointment software redirects to a CDC site that explains availability, which is both complicated and ambiguous. The only way it would book me is if I marked the box for immunocompromised. That seems to be their term of art for being over 65, but elsewhere on the site it says you qualify if you're over 12 and it's been more than three months or something since your last injection. In short, if pharmacies would just book you when you're standing there in person, the system would work. Their wooden insistence on online booking is a needless and sometimes insurmountable barrier.
I think part of the issue is that the public health messaging is so contradictory and difficult to digest. For two years, we were told to "follow the CDC" re: masking. But now, public health experts are telling us that the CDC isn't handling covid and the vaccine campaign effectively or properly. People don't know who to trust, and we (because I include myself) are confused about when the booster would be best for us, particularly if we have hybrid immunity.
I haven't had covid, and I had my bivalent booster in September. But my child (who is age 11 and boosted in May) had covid in late July. Actually, today is her 90-day mark post-infection. But some people are saying she should wait another few months to get the maximum benefit from the bivalent booster.... but she had a very mild covid infection, so I am also reading that some people who have very mild cases don't build as much immunity.
All the experts contradict each other (even people whom I trust very much) and it's nearly impossible to know the right thing to do. I want to get my child her bivalent, but I also want to time it right.
I wish everyone would get on the same page and set forth some bright-line guidance for when people should get their boosters. I think the lack of straightforward messaging on this is making a lot of people hesitant to move forward.
Thanks for your wonderful comment. I couldn’t agree more. Some public health leadership is desperately needed
I know whom to trust: Dr. Jetelina. ;-)
Doctors at the Baylor system are being told at presentations that the additional booster is superfluous and that as long as they have three shots they have all the protection they need. I am disheartened by the medical community getting subpar advice. They then go and tell non medical personnel not to bother getting the shot. So there are forces within the medical community working against booster uptake.
This shouldn't be happening! Who are these misinformed presenters, and what can be done to get accurate information to the providers?
With respect to Drs Siegel and Rosenberg, the lack of interest in boosters and childhood covid vaccines isn't due to lack of motivation, eligibility questions, or focused engagement.
The lack of enthusiasm is directly correlated to the perceived lack of benefit.
To the general population a vaccine means "you can't get that thing anymore". This is why we have successfully convinced people to get the vaccines which work - it was self-evident that the thing you were vaccinating against - whether it's polio, measles, or chickenpox went away after you got vaccinated.
If the varicella vaccine didn't reduce odds of getting chickenpox, and only lowered odds of being hospitalized (which are close to zero for children anyway), Drs Siegel and Rosenberg would have had a much harder time increasing routine immunization in Marin County.
Katelyn has been one of the few voices from the beginning pointing out this wasn't a sterilizing vaccine and reminding readers we didn't have enough information on impact of transmission, and for that she should be commended.
Yet Public Health did not present that message. The message was clear and unambiguous - get the vaccine and you can't get covid. Just like lay people would expect of any vaccine. Whether it was Fauci [1], Rachel Maddow [2], the CEO of Pfizer [3], Stephen Colbert [4], or the CDC [5], the message was continuously amplified from all directions - Covid vaccines stop Covid. This was how there was support for business and school vaccine mandates for covid shots - the public believed that herd immunity was in sight thanks to the vaccine.
That is not the case.
Having a Covid vaccine appears to have no correlation to the odds of getting Covid [6].
Walensky getting Covid exactly one month after she got her bivalent booster is just the latest in a string of bad PR for the vaccine and boosters following the repeated high-profile infections for Bourla, Colbert, Fauci, and the Bidens this past year.
Not to mention for many, the vaccine made people sick. Just look at all the schools which had to close because too many teachers fell ill immediately after vaccines. [7] My social media was flooded with friends and family acknowledging how horrible they felt after the first or second dose, but taking comfort how worth it will be knowing they can't get covid anymore. (I'd estimate roughly 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 people in my friend group/family got knocked down a day or two post dose 1 or 2)
For them to go through that and still get Covid anyway - often making them feel terrible yet again - makes it hard to dismiss their reluctance to go through 3rd, 4th, or 5th shot as "antivaxx".
The erosion of confidence by the public at large in the vaccine efficacy is clearly why we have millions of soon to expire shots few are taking. To ignore this feels like sticking our heads in the sand.
________________
[1] https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-vaccinated-people-become-dead-ends-for-the-coronavirus/
[2] https://twitter.com/albertbourla/status/1377618480527257606
[3] https://twitter.com/aginnt/status/1475193955704881152
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSkFyNVtNh8
[5] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7013e3.htm?s_cid=mm7013e3_w
[6] Just look at every highly vaccinated state or country which exploded in covid cases regardless of being leaders in vaccination rates (Denmark, South Korea, Japan, Vermont, California, Australia, etc) - it's hard to reconcile high level country level results with a CDC published case control study claiming otherwise
[7] Quick sampling of headlines I saw immediately following early 2021 rollout: https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/suburban-school-district-cancels-classes-after-125-teachers-staff-called-off-for-vaccine-side-effects
https://fox8.com/news/coronavirus/fairless-local-schools-cancels-class-over-covid-19-vaccine-reactions/
https://www.wfmz.com/news/area/southeastern-pa/upper-perk-sd-closed-friday-after-40-staff-call-out-sick-due-to-vaccine-reactions/article_6f9e2e7a-88a6-11eb-86c6-c3f748d1e8dd.html
https://www.unionleader.com/news/health/coronavirus/concord-schools-closed-after-large-number-of-staff-calls-in-sick-after-getting-vaccine/article_6f998f8f-7409-51f9-a937-9b90a33efa2f.html
https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/sandy-creek-schools-closed-thursday-due-to-staffer-side-effects-from-2nd-covid-19-vaccine-shot/
Excellent, excellent post! Thank you!
Yes!!!
With the latest variants, the vaccine no longer protects one from catching it but greatly reduces the odds of severe illness and death.
Yes, people sometimes have reactions for a couple days following the vaccine, but chances of severe or long-lasting effects are vanishingly small. Whereas catching covid when unvaccinated is a considerably larger threat to health.
Citing twitter as sources does not lend much confidence in your arguments.
I suspect the public doesn’t care why they didn’t stop them from getting Covid, they just know it didn’t work as advertised.
As for “citing Twitter”, that’s the platform Bourla chose to communicate his Covid experience.
Last time I posted on FB, a friend of mine posted in response. She has a school-aged son and had a bad inflammation reaction to the second Moderna shot. While the rest of her family has continued receiving vaccines, she was frustrated that it's less talked about who *shouldn't* get the vaccines. We both agreed that public health is HARD because many more people just need to hear that they *should* get it. In Europe they are more specific (e.g., "Hey if you're at risk for myocarditis, talk with your dr or maybe prioritize getting Pfizer instead of Moderna"). On the one hand, that seems to sow doubt, but on the other hand, as my friend pointed out, if the experts don't acknowledge the problems of the vaccine, people will look at less reliable sources and possibly fall down conspiracy theory rabbit holes.
I can see an advantage to being open about who shouldn't get the vaccine, too. If the posters in CVS, say, displayed "Should you get the fall booster? - If you had an unusual reaction to a previous booster, talk to your doctor first. - If you're a male under age 29 [or whatever] with no extra risk factors, talk to your doctor first. - If you received another covid vaccine or had a covid infection in the last 90 days, wait until three months is up." The implication being, if you *don't* fall into one of those three categories, step right up!
I think that you make a really valid point. It's important that messaging is nuanced and acknowledges that vaccines have risks, however small.
right. Incredibly small! Usually a clear tradeoff between getting sick and getting the vaccine. But not absolutely always.
Bringing the vaccines to people rather than having the people come to the vaccines is also quite successful. As a health department, we go on the road...to farms, to assisted living, to workplaces...we bring the vaccine, and quite a lot of people get one. We bring flu shots, and quite a lot of people get both. Thank you for introducing me to the IIFF Model though.
The storage requirements were adjusted. They really aren’t extreme anymore. In my area, doctor and pediatrician offices have no interest in offering the COVID vaccines. I don’t know if it’s due to the complexity of the products, lack of staff/bandwidth to handle the administration or what. Our ped office offered them at first then promptly stopped and never offered them again.
I do think the power of the primary care provider for vaccine confidence is important. We do make actual house calls for homebound people wanting vaccines in addition to going to community sites. I was working in the hospital in 2021 so not sure what their outreach was at that point, although I know they were doing huge community PODs.
I initially had a favorable attitude toward the mRNA vaccines, but I have had extended systemic reactions to all 3 of the doses I got, and I no longer trust that technology. So I've been waiting patiently for the Novavax vaccine - but now I've read that if you've already had one mRNA booster, you cannot get the Novavax booster! WTF! Those of us with autoimmune diseases (who are NOT on immunosuppressive drugs) and those of us with on-going Chronic Fatigue (ME/CFS) from herpes-family viruses have been systematically gaslighted by the medical establishment for decades. I'm losing hope.
Welcome to the club, sort of.
I'm an ME/CFS patient, too, and vaccines tend to hit me hard. Flu shots usually leave me dragged out for three weeks, although one that I got in 2017 sent me into relapse for months. The mRNA COVID shots gave me fever and chills for about a day, and relapse for 2-3 weeks, but I suspect that the COVID virus would have been even worse. I considered Novavax, but decided it was unlikely to provide the protection I wanted.
On the good side, my bivalent vaccine didn't hit me quite as hard as the first four did. But this year's flu shot landed me on my butt for a week. I did not get both at the same time.
Dr. Klimas recommends anti-oxidant supplements and anti-histamines at time of vaccine, which did seem to help.
Good luck!
Generally I've done OK with the flu vaccines - except last year when I got the "senior" dose, which I will never do again! Turns out that it (Fluzone HD) not only had 4 times as much of each of the viral components, it also had a huge slug of formaldehyde (which none of the other versions of the shot had). Vizient produces a report every year that provides a detailed list of the flu vaccines, with all their ingredients. See https://www.vizientinc.com/-/media/documents/sitecorepublishingdocuments/secured/solutions/pharmacy/sbs_2022_2023_fluvaccine_0222_final.pdf From now on, I am consulting their chart before I get my flu shot.
For the Novavax, one person who responded to my comment says that it is based on the S2 protein, which has not mutated. If that's true, I'm thinking it may provide some very useful protection - still trying to confirm that and figure out how I can get the shot.
Good luck to you too! Do you know about the HealthRising website, which is specifically focused on ME/CFS? It's excellent: https://www.healthrising.org/
Yes, Health Rising is one of my favorite information sources. I subscribe to their newsletter. Cort Johnson is amazing.
As for the flu shot, I've been getting the senior dose because the lower dose wasn't giving me protection, but I wasn't aware of the formaldehyde. Thanks for that info.
I had a good day yesterday, so I bought groceries. Even though I used a scooter, today I feel like I died and went to hell. Oh, well, this too shall pass, and at least there are groceries in the house. The joys of living with ME/CFS!
This year's Vizient table indicates that FluBlok has 45 mcg of each virus (Fluzone HD has 60, regular vaccines have 15) - AND it has no formaldehyde (or mercury either, which FluzoneHD also has). As an aside, for my FM/CFS, I've been having positive improvement on the ubiquinol + NADH combination.
Very interesting about the Flublok. Have you tried it yet? I will consider it for next year.
I take a number of supplements for my CFS, including CoQ-10 and L-carnitine, but it's been a while since I tried NADH. Probably should give it another try.
Famvir worked wonders for me in 2010, but the benefits only lasted a year and a half. Tried it again since then, but no benefit. Tried several other things, too, including low-dose naltrexone, high-dose Vit B1, etc. without much benefit.
I'm in Michigan, but flew to California in 2018 to provide blood and hair samples for Ron Davis's research. He's pretty amazing, and highly motivated due to his son's severe ME/CFS.
After my experience last year with a very nasty reaction to the FluzoneHD, coupled with my body's tendency to over-react to everything, I've decided to go back to regular-dose flu shots, so I just got the Afluria shot today. May get a second dose of that one in another 4-6 weeks if the flu season turns out to be a bad one.
I think I've heard that, with more time to work on mRNA vaccines, they're hoping to dial down their reactogenicity now. During emergency manufacture of an unprecedented vaccine, ensuring it works is a much higher priority than ensuring it's comfortable, so initial formulations might be far more reactogenic than is necessary, with reactogenicity dropping as they get the hang of mRNA vaccine craft.
COVID mRNA vaccines have been pretty hard on the EDS (Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome) community, too -- but also worth it, considering how hard facing COVID unprotected would be.
I have EDS, asthma, and hay fever, and have been so sick since September started, first from ragweed, leading to escalating colds, finally ending in a chest cold provoking a spectacularly feverish sinus infection, but I kept hoping I'd get better before getting fall vaccines. Welp.
I'm on antibiotics and prednisone now, and can still hear my lungs bubbling, but at least I haven't got fever anymore. Splitting the bivalent booster and flu vaccine looks increasingly unfeasible for me now, so I might just bite the bullet and try to get both at once before I have to start the prednisone taper... Not ideal, but less-than-ideal is better than too late. If I'm flattened after such a stunt, at least it won't change how my fall has gone.
According to a STAT article: "It can only be used as a first booster shot; anyone who has already had one or multiple boosters cannot opt to get this vaccine at this point." See https://www.statnews.com/2022/10/19/fda-authorizes-booster-shot-for-novavaxs-covid-19-vaccine/?utm_source=STAT+Newsletters&utm_campaign=30bf219e67-M%E2%80%A6
My take on this tweet from the CDC Director is * any * adult who has been vaxed can now choose Novavax as a booster:
“If you are 18 or older, have received your primary Covid vaccine series, and have been waiting for the Novavax booster, it is now available to you.” - Rochelle Walensky
See tweet here: https://twitter.com/CDCDirector/status/1582828920272916480?cxt=HHwWgMCo0Ymhq_crAAAA
I expect the STAT article was written prior to the CDC announcement (probably 10/18) , though both are dated 10/19/2022. In any event, if the CDC says it is approved as a booster, I'd rely on that rather than the STAT article.
Good news! Novavax has been approved as a booster.
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2022/s1019-novavax.html
As for the primary series, I think it is straightforward.
For those not immunocompromised, the primary series consists of one shot of J&J, or 2 shots of Novavax, or 2 shots of either mRNA vaccine.
For those immunocompromised, the primary series consists of one shot of J&J + one shot of an mRNA vaccine, 2 shots of Novavax (only if 12 years and older; no additional shot if immunocompromised), or 3 shots of either mRNA vaccine.
Immunocompromised or not, for the primary series utilizing only one of the mRNA vaccines, the same vaccine should be used for the 2 or 3 shots.
For the immunocompromised vaccination details, see the information or graphic titled "COVID-19 vaccination guidance for people who are moderately or severely immunocompromised" farther down at the CDC website for which you provided the link.
Generally, I agree. However, based on the study at the link below, those 65+ who have had a SARS-CoV-2 infection likely would need only the primary series for those not immunocompromised. For those with no history or evidence of infection, treating those 65+ as immunocompromised (at least as it relates to the COVID-19 vaccines) does seem to be appropriate.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43587-022-00292-y
Would Evusheld be a good option in Diving Turtle's situation?
Perhaps, but Evusheld is demonstrating a 2.8–65X reduction (depending on how it's assessed) in neutralizing capacity against BA.4/5. Also, autoimmune diseases do not necessarily result in being immunocompromised. Finally, Evusheld can have a cross-sensitivity with the mRNA vaccines due to the structural similarity between polysorbate 80 and polyethylene glycol, so the advisability of using Evusheld would need to be assessed carefully by a physician familiar with all these factors for such a patient.
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2022/s1019-novavax.html
The NYT article basically said what anyone who knows Marin County already understood: vaccination rates started to climb when people perceived it as a political issue and they could use vaccination status as a way to distinguish themselves from Republicans. This is not a good solution!
Is it still true that we should wait three months to get bivalent booster after a Covid infection? All the commentary about low booster uptake seems to ignore this. My husband and I had Covid in mid September, so we plan to wait to get booster until December. We aren’t slackers!
I agree, a lot of commentary is missing this point! Yes, if I were you, I would still wait! Even if we take into account those delaying a booster because of infection, rates are still suboptimal.
I came here to ask the same question/make the same observation, having had omicron in January and booster #2 in mid-July, and keep trying to ride the wave of peaking, aiming for a mid-November bivalent.
I've also just kind of expected the bivalent to get a similar uptake reaction that the flu vaccine does--people pacing themselves based on their area, their expected interactions and probability of exposure, and the like.
I think one of the recent failures of sci-comm is speaking of the previous vaccines in absolutes ("you won't get sick") when they needed a caveat ("unless the virus evolves"). Because of that, a significant amount of people I know feel like "why should I get the bivalent booster, does it even do anything?" Related to that, one thing I've been telling people is that I've anecdotally seen (and I bookmark these if people want examples) plenty of people getting the bivalent and attending a conference masked and avoiding it. But also people getting a breakthrough by attending something unmasked, however those breakthroughs resolve much faster (3-5 days positive instead of 10-14 days).
So the messaging I'm using when friends/family bring it up is 1) it's not perfect but it definitely helps 2) combine it with a mask in crowded indoor spaces and they're a formidable shield together 3) if you do get a breakthrough, it hugely cuts down on time/severity.
Anyone here have other messaging that works better? Or further anecdotal evidence about how well the bivalent is holding up?
My moms good friend got all his shots and has diabetes and got a bad case of COVID but not hospitalized. That continues to make her think vaccines don't work, so I have to keep reminding her every time she mentions it I say, "thank goodness he had the vaccines otherwise he would have been in the hospital". Then they just went on a cruise (four of them) and they all got COVID and surprisingly she was only sick for two days but tested positive for a week - she only had the two initial shots, 75 years old with pulmonary condition and I told her "grateful you got the vaccine as it could have been much worse". I also have to keep reminding her that the vaccines just like the flu shot are not meant to prevent infection but meant to keep you from getting severe, hospitalized, death from it. She only got the two initial shots so she wouldn' t be restricted from activities, etc . She didn't even know of the booster or bivalent until I mentioned my daughter and I were getting it.
I had bad reactions to no. 3 and 4 that I’m leary of no 5. I am also leary of Covid so I’ll do no.5. You i spired me again. Thanks.
A friend of mine had a severe reaction to Moderna #2 (it's meant to cause an inflammation response, but it made her plantar fasciitis so bad she couldn't walk and took her nearly a year to fully recover). She hasn't had further vaccines, but her family has all kept up. I understand that! She probably would have had a bad time with covid too, but they're hoping that keeping her family vaxxed will make her getting it less likely. SO my point is, absolutely put in a call to your doc and ask about the risk/benefit. Despite the vaccine reaction, maybe it would be worse to get covid, or maybe you're better off resting on your laurels.
I actually got covid right after this.BTW It was not as bad as the reactions to the previous boosters. I had good intentions of getting booster, I just waited (mammogram coming up) and Covid happened.
Herd immunity has been a failed strategy with coronavirus. Vaccination for corona must now be considered a personal risk/benefit decision, and always should have been. It’s no different from the public health approach to smoking - ultimately it’s an individual choice. We can give advice and setup incentive structures, but to do more than that is crossing a line into people’s personal lives that they will resent us for. People do risky things every day, always have, always will. Public health needs to move on from its one dimensional thinking - the law of diminishing returns applies.
It is discouraging that people still get covid even after getting vaccinated and boosted. Yes, the formal vaccination goal is to prevent hospitalizations and death. Even so, when people get vaccinated and then get covid anyway, and feel terrible even while at home, it seems (to them and their friends) that the vaccination failed. Maybe we could get to a better vaccine.
Agree, yet it is a stretch to say that an illness that causes one to miss work or class for a week or more is "mild" (the official language) even if one is not hospitalized. Perhaps what the vaccine can and cannot do can be presented more accurately to regular people. They are not medical experts, but they also are observant as to what happens to themselves, and their friends and neighbors. The present vaccines are a great achievement, but it's ok to hope for even better.
By focusing on what the vaccines can't do instead of what they can do is exactly why people don't get them. Yes we can hope for better, but waiting until the perfect comes along means a lot of people are going to die.
Just got the whole family Vaxxed this past week. It took longer because we had to make an appointment. I get it at our local Safeway and scheduling it took a week. Also had to make a separate appointment for each family member. I can see how someone more ambivalent than me might not get it done for a while.
How are you defining which people * currently * have "favorable attitudes" yet are "passive positives"?
There are people who * initially * had favorable attitudes. They got the primary vaccine series. Some may have even gotten one or more boosters. But why aren't they getting the latest booster? Is it simply because they lack motivation - or has their attitude changed from "favorable" to "skeptical"?
For people in the "skeptical" camp, the spectrum is wide and includes those who never got the primary series in the first place - despite mandates, (threats of) job loss and other forms of government sponsored coercion and shaming.
Now that the vaccinated-yet-skeptical group has been lumped together with the anti-vaxers, they will be met with a certain level of scorn and derision by a small yet vocal faction of "active positives," which only makes the skeptics more entrenched in their position not to get boosted.
It doesn't help that President Biden has declared that the "pandemic is over." It doesn't help that the CEO of Pfizer comes down with Covid twice in the space of a month. It doesn't help that the CDC Director gets Covid only a month after she received her bivalent booster.
I am a skeptic. An incredibly pro-vaccine skeptic. We were vaccinated as soon as eligible and boosted as soon as eligible. But, there’s no data on the efficacy of the boosters. I am not a science person, and YLE has been a lifeline for me through the pandemic. But, I also place a lot of stock in the assessment of someone like Paul Offitt, who would argue that I don’t need a second booster. I also think I would feel differently if Moderna 2 and 3 had not completely incapacitated me with the worst headache of my life and vomiting for 48 hours. I was non functional and wondered if I was having an aneurysm. My PCM says, “maybe try Pfizer, or maybe mRNA is not for you.” The sad reality is we are all learning as we go along. I have several friends, over 50, who got Covid 2-3 weeks after the bivalent booster. That does not build confidence because you cannot even make the argument that you are most/best protected for 3-4 months. What is the benefit?
Thanks for your input, and I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I, too, have come to accept being flattened by the vaccines because it beats the risks from an infection. I had read that the people most at risk from a covid infection were the people who experience a "cytokine storm." I'm a walking, talking cytokine storm (guessing you are, too) so I decided that the vaccine might make me miserable, but the infection was much more likely to kill me (or worsen my health, if that's possible, by throwing me into long covid.)
The covid vaccines that I've been getting are the Moderna shots, which I found out later are much higher dose than Pfizer, but I decided to continue with them anyway for additional protection. Last year was rough because in addition to all the covid vaccines and flu shot, I also got my two-shot regimen of Shingrix. That floored me, too, so I am grateful to have it over with.
Hope you feel better soon!