Hi YLE - Thank you for the great info as always! Can you shed some light on why other countries have come to different recommendations, as it relates to kids, for the COVID vaccine? Several countries either aren't recommending the vaccine and / or boosters for this age group. There is of course misinformation out there (mainly driven by media), but there are several ethical countries who have landed on a different recommendation for their youth.
I would love this too. The data hasn’t sold me on boosters. Especially when there are reports of increased myocarditis. YLE is one of my trusted voices. So is Paul Offitt, and he is not in favor. We vaccinated as soon as we were all eligible, but I am floundering right now.
Understand what Offit is saying. In no case has he said they’re not safe, or a problem in any way. ALL I’ve seen him say is that he thinks the original vaccines are SO good by themselves that he doesn’t see a need to recommend anything newer. It’s largely because he’s decided he only cares about severe outcomes and doesn’t really care about preventing infection or transmission.
Personally, I see an abundance of reason to believe the new ones will be better, and I don’t really care if it’s 20 or 40 or 80% better. Plus I *do* care about lowering the risk of infection/missing school/feeling sick/transmitting to at risk family, even if he doesn’t.
I am a bit surprised that you find Paul Offitt to be a reliable source. His views are so often in opposition to Katelynn and many others. I have speculated that he is just unable to be satisfied with any prelimary findings even when the alternatives seem worse. In other words, always "cautious" and unwilling to weigh the positives and negatives of any action until too much time has gone by and lives may have been lost while waiting. Measured risks are part of life and his measurement mechanism seems flawed to me.
I appreciate cautious. I disagreed with him (as an under 50, healthy, adult) and got a booster. But, the evidence for a bivalent booster is not overwhelming, given my age and health (same for my children). And, we are not starting from ground zero.
I would argue that, when a pioneer of vaccine advocacy in the US gives pause, it is worth listening. It is also worth listening when those I believe to be trusted voices dissent. I would love to hear (as someone who does not hold degrees in science) from Dr. Jetalina and others about the myocarditis risk for my boys. It is horrible to feel stuck between a rock and a hard place.
As the prior Director of the Office of Pediatric Therapeutics at FDA, and the Office which administered the safety reviews of newly approved products by the Pediatric Advisory Committee of FDA, I would suggest that we NOT be saying we know the LONG-TERM safety profile for myocarditis in adolescent males, nor be reassuring re long term outcomes-we simply do not know nor have the data. At this point we have absolutely no idea what myocarditis, caused by what is probably an autoimmune process, will mean when these young men are in their 30's or 40's or 50's. What we should be saying is, at this point, the risk of the virus causing severe illness in healthy (non-immunocompromised) males of this age group is ------ (low) vs the risk of myocarditis which will result in hospitalization is_____ (lower) ,with a known short term outcome that is encourageing. Though we see no evidence of KNOWN permanent damage in the majority of cases, there is no long term outcome information at this time. ALL confidence will be lost in government agencies if we are not careful in how we define the risk-benefit in this specific population for this immunization. Obviously young males with immunecompromised systems or other conditions that make them more likely to have a severe outcome from a Coronovirus infection should NOT be lumped into this approach as they have a higher risk of a poor outcome if infected. . Population statistics can be misleading when dealing with subpopulations. Thank you for doing such a great job at addressing this evolving epidemic. Dianne Murphy, MD, AAP (retired)
Thank you for saying this. As a parent, trying to make the best decision for two young boys, I appreciate your words.
My friend’s six year-old developed myocarditis after his second Pfizer. It could be correlation and not causation. But, it is has altered his life in the short term. The long term is anyone’s guess. He, after receiving the primary series, got Covid and it exacerbated his issues. It has been a nightmare for good friends who have lived so cautiously, followed guidance, etc.
Always sorry to hear about a child and family who are suffering. A child ill with a common respiratory virus can be upsetting to parents, as it is hard to watch our children be uncomfortable, and myocarditis is definitely more stress inducing. That is why we, meaning physicians and government representatives, need to be clear about what we know and do NOT know. Reassurance without long term data is not serving the public. Reassurance about short term data, needs to be clearly stated as such.
I am not a cardiologist but we do have pre-pandemic data showing that WITHOUT vaccination there is a bump in myocarditis in the adolescent male group, the cause of which is basically undefined. The extremely close relationship to vaccination and the onset within days of myocarditis in a subset of adolescent males is at this point thought to be related. The good news presently is that in most resolve fairly quickly and are discharged home within days. My point is that we need to follow this subgroup for long term problems and in the meantime be more forthright about what we do NOT know.
I feel like there's a bit of nuance with respect to how CDC and ACIP recommendations impact state and local laws. Clearly Tucker Carlson is being less than honest when he says that these are "requirements". However, it's also the case that CDC guidelines are automatically "incorporated by reference" into various "rule sets". Those sets of rules would need to be explicitly re-written if those rule makers disagree with current CDC guidelines. We could gain a bit more flexibility if ACIP had some sort of "versioning" system when it issues recommendations, or published handbooks every few years, similar to NIST, NFPA, the DSM, etc.
Can you identify a single state that does? Because according the the table above only one state literally checks all the boxes. None of the others do. Plus the table doesn’t even show flu and few states mandate flu which is ALSO on the CDCs vaccine schedule.
So with the possible exception of Hawaii, I think the graph disproves the idea that states inherently mandate the CDC schedule.
Many states have their vaccine mandates for children linked to the CDC. If the CDC says it is included in the 36 vaccines for children, then those states linked to their list will comply. Children will have to have these vaccinations to attend school. Pediatricians will have to give them.
Personally, I'm all for mandating covid vaccines for kids. But if's required in your state and you object to that you need to blame your state government, not on the CDC. Plenty of states ignore various CDC guidelines.
And very reasonably so. Most, if not all, states haven't the resources to reach independent, superior conclusions than the CDC. Attempts to do so are much more likely to be politically motivated by ignorance or deliberatley misleading people/politicians.
Not true and the table above proves it. All the items in the table are on the vaccine schedule and only one state (not “quite a few”) literally checks every box. Plus flu is in the schedule and that’s not even listed there and is rarely mandated. Just more bull from Tucker.
False. The table Katelyn posted disproves the idea that “many states” link to the CDC schedule. Only 1 state (HI) literally checks all the boxes and that table doesn’t even include flu which is on the schedule and rarely mandated.
No. Not cherry picking. He read the statutes from several states. He didn't read all the states that have this statute. I think he mentioned 27 states but my memory isn't that great.
I have been hearing rumbles of very bad outbreaks of RSV in some places. Any tips for those of us hoping to dodge this bullet? Is it real or just hot air?
Looking at my local Fox newscast this morning just as I finished up with reading Kaitlyn's summary. To my great relief they reported the CDC's actions fairly, emphasizing mandates (if any) would be matters for state and local authorities. Another local station, a Sinclair affiliate, has also had a sterling record of unbiased coverage of the health scene. Take away is that the Tucker Carlson types don't dominate health coverage in the conservative broadcast media and that's very heartening. Perhaps we don't have to be divided in everything.
My impression is that Fox News is fairly reasonable in its accuracy. It is the Fox commentators (whom many seem to believe are providing real news rather than political propaganda) who distort reality with their untrue comments.
I appreciate the clarification about the CDC Vaccine schedule because I am starting to see some politicians using it as a vote-grab bullet point. Followup question for context - is the flu vaccine also on that schedule? To my knowledge, that has not been a mandate in MN for public education or daycare, so I presume that the COVID vaccine would follow that trend.
Unlike other vaccines like polio, neither of these are a sure-enough bet against getting sick for every family to want to assume their risk nor does getting them ensure a major squelch in transmission, so do you think that is the reasoning behind some being mandated vs others not?
Hello, my 5 yo has his original series and then had his booster August 2022, when should he get his new booster? As a PA I find this so unclear and I feel like we need formal guidelines.
The guidance was at least 2 months after the last dose/infection. Waiting a bit longer may help increase the immune response/effectiveness. Doing something like just before Thanksgiving may make sense especially if you have plans to be with family for the holiday.
PS just so happens my family had COVID in May, so bc of that my 5-11 yo never got the booster (a virus booster I suppose). I wavered on whether to get her the booster before school this fall or wait for the bivalent. Decided to wait and she’ll get it soon so that’s 5 months which probably worked out pretty well.
Thank you. Our one candidate for governor, Senator Mastriano in Pennsylvania, is making a point of scaring people away from vaccinations for adults and adolescents. I appreciate data to help argue against his words.
I'm not sure where to ask this, or where to look for information on it--are there rapid tests that use a saliva sample that are accurate? A rapid test for my son who can't tolerate nasal swabs would be super useful, and while a Google search turns up antigen tests with saliva samples are available in other countries, I don't see any that seem to be US based and I don't know how to tell if they're reliable.
That’s really exciting! I found it, thank you so much! Extensive web searches suggest they’re not selling them just yet but it’s just a matter of time.
Depends when in 2021 you mean. By mid year many pregnant women had decided to get it and they were collecting data that was showing there were no known safety issues.
I’ve seen many people asserting that adding the Covid vaccine to the recommended list is unprecedented because they are still EUA. How should we respond to this?
Loving all this news! Do you have any thoughts on mixing vaccine brands in the 5+ group? Both my kids got Pfizer x3 (last in May), and my youngest turns 6 next week so I'd like to do Moderna this round. I'm guessing there isn't specific data on kids
I saw some data on adults about mixing vaccine brands. It did seem that there was some evidence that Different mixtures might be more or less effective but the difference wasn't enough for me to continue investigating or thinking about it. I know as a parent you might be trying to do the very best thing for your child but for me personally when I looked at the different effectiveness in the different combinations it wasn't worth worrying about because they were all pretty good.
Are there any trials being done currently for an extra covid vaccine during pregnancy? Since we now seem to be on a one covid booster per year schedule, it's possible that depending on the date of their last dose, some pregnant individuals would not be eligible to get vaccinated during pregnancy. Given the increased risk for negative health outcomes for parent and fetus/child during/after pregnancy and the benefits of vaccination during pregnancy, I'm surprised I haven't seen anything about eligibility for additional boosters in this group.
Have the mRNA vaccines gotten full FDA approval for under 12? I thought they still had emergency approval. Interesting that they would add it to the childhood vaccine schedule without full approval. I hope that comes soon.
Hi YLE - Thank you for the great info as always! Can you shed some light on why other countries have come to different recommendations, as it relates to kids, for the COVID vaccine? Several countries either aren't recommending the vaccine and / or boosters for this age group. There is of course misinformation out there (mainly driven by media), but there are several ethical countries who have landed on a different recommendation for their youth.
I would love this too. The data hasn’t sold me on boosters. Especially when there are reports of increased myocarditis. YLE is one of my trusted voices. So is Paul Offitt, and he is not in favor. We vaccinated as soon as we were all eligible, but I am floundering right now.
Understand what Offit is saying. In no case has he said they’re not safe, or a problem in any way. ALL I’ve seen him say is that he thinks the original vaccines are SO good by themselves that he doesn’t see a need to recommend anything newer. It’s largely because he’s decided he only cares about severe outcomes and doesn’t really care about preventing infection or transmission.
Personally, I see an abundance of reason to believe the new ones will be better, and I don’t really care if it’s 20 or 40 or 80% better. Plus I *do* care about lowering the risk of infection/missing school/feeling sick/transmitting to at risk family, even if he doesn’t.
I am a bit surprised that you find Paul Offitt to be a reliable source. His views are so often in opposition to Katelynn and many others. I have speculated that he is just unable to be satisfied with any prelimary findings even when the alternatives seem worse. In other words, always "cautious" and unwilling to weigh the positives and negatives of any action until too much time has gone by and lives may have been lost while waiting. Measured risks are part of life and his measurement mechanism seems flawed to me.
I appreciate cautious. I disagreed with him (as an under 50, healthy, adult) and got a booster. But, the evidence for a bivalent booster is not overwhelming, given my age and health (same for my children). And, we are not starting from ground zero.
I would argue that, when a pioneer of vaccine advocacy in the US gives pause, it is worth listening. It is also worth listening when those I believe to be trusted voices dissent. I would love to hear (as someone who does not hold degrees in science) from Dr. Jetalina and others about the myocarditis risk for my boys. It is horrible to feel stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Yes! I listened to his TWIV interview. His interview with ZDogg too. I very much think his voice is valid.
As the prior Director of the Office of Pediatric Therapeutics at FDA, and the Office which administered the safety reviews of newly approved products by the Pediatric Advisory Committee of FDA, I would suggest that we NOT be saying we know the LONG-TERM safety profile for myocarditis in adolescent males, nor be reassuring re long term outcomes-we simply do not know nor have the data. At this point we have absolutely no idea what myocarditis, caused by what is probably an autoimmune process, will mean when these young men are in their 30's or 40's or 50's. What we should be saying is, at this point, the risk of the virus causing severe illness in healthy (non-immunocompromised) males of this age group is ------ (low) vs the risk of myocarditis which will result in hospitalization is_____ (lower) ,with a known short term outcome that is encourageing. Though we see no evidence of KNOWN permanent damage in the majority of cases, there is no long term outcome information at this time. ALL confidence will be lost in government agencies if we are not careful in how we define the risk-benefit in this specific population for this immunization. Obviously young males with immunecompromised systems or other conditions that make them more likely to have a severe outcome from a Coronovirus infection should NOT be lumped into this approach as they have a higher risk of a poor outcome if infected. . Population statistics can be misleading when dealing with subpopulations. Thank you for doing such a great job at addressing this evolving epidemic. Dianne Murphy, MD, AAP (retired)
Thank you for saying this. As a parent, trying to make the best decision for two young boys, I appreciate your words.
My friend’s six year-old developed myocarditis after his second Pfizer. It could be correlation and not causation. But, it is has altered his life in the short term. The long term is anyone’s guess. He, after receiving the primary series, got Covid and it exacerbated his issues. It has been a nightmare for good friends who have lived so cautiously, followed guidance, etc.
Always sorry to hear about a child and family who are suffering. A child ill with a common respiratory virus can be upsetting to parents, as it is hard to watch our children be uncomfortable, and myocarditis is definitely more stress inducing. That is why we, meaning physicians and government representatives, need to be clear about what we know and do NOT know. Reassurance without long term data is not serving the public. Reassurance about short term data, needs to be clearly stated as such.
I am not a cardiologist but we do have pre-pandemic data showing that WITHOUT vaccination there is a bump in myocarditis in the adolescent male group, the cause of which is basically undefined. The extremely close relationship to vaccination and the onset within days of myocarditis in a subset of adolescent males is at this point thought to be related. The good news presently is that in most resolve fairly quickly and are discharged home within days. My point is that we need to follow this subgroup for long term problems and in the meantime be more forthright about what we do NOT know.
I feel like there's a bit of nuance with respect to how CDC and ACIP recommendations impact state and local laws. Clearly Tucker Carlson is being less than honest when he says that these are "requirements". However, it's also the case that CDC guidelines are automatically "incorporated by reference" into various "rule sets". Those sets of rules would need to be explicitly re-written if those rule makers disagree with current CDC guidelines. We could gain a bit more flexibility if ACIP had some sort of "versioning" system when it issues recommendations, or published handbooks every few years, similar to NIST, NFPA, the DSM, etc.
Can you identify a single state that does? Because according the the table above only one state literally checks all the boxes. None of the others do. Plus the table doesn’t even show flu and few states mandate flu which is ALSO on the CDCs vaccine schedule.
So with the possible exception of Hawaii, I think the graph disproves the idea that states inherently mandate the CDC schedule.
Many states have their vaccine mandates for children linked to the CDC. If the CDC says it is included in the 36 vaccines for children, then those states linked to their list will comply. Children will have to have these vaccinations to attend school. Pediatricians will have to give them.
Personally, I'm all for mandating covid vaccines for kids. But if's required in your state and you object to that you need to blame your state government, not on the CDC. Plenty of states ignore various CDC guidelines.
Quite a few states have it built into their laws. Their childhood vaccination schedules are based directly on CDC regulations and recommendations.
And very reasonably so. Most, if not all, states haven't the resources to reach independent, superior conclusions than the CDC. Attempts to do so are much more likely to be politically motivated by ignorance or deliberatley misleading people/politicians.
Not true and the table above proves it. All the items in the table are on the vaccine schedule and only one state (not “quite a few”) literally checks every box. Plus flu is in the schedule and that’s not even listed there and is rarely mandated. Just more bull from Tucker.
False. The table Katelyn posted disproves the idea that “many states” link to the CDC schedule. Only 1 state (HI) literally checks all the boxes and that table doesn’t even include flu which is on the schedule and rarely mandated.
I don't recall the list but Tucker mentioned quite a few of the states and read their STATUTES.
No. Not cherry picking. He read the statutes from several states. He didn't read all the states that have this statute. I think he mentioned 27 states but my memory isn't that great.
Well if it’s from Tucker than that’s another good way to know it’s false 🙄
Tucker's staff does meticulous research. You are a fool.
See my comment above. ACIP should publish a handbook periodically, so that jurisdictions that wish to run a step behind are free to do so.
I have been hearing rumbles of very bad outbreaks of RSV in some places. Any tips for those of us hoping to dodge this bullet? Is it real or just hot air?
It’s real. Pediatric hospital units are overflowing.
https://www.wtnh.com/news/connecticuts-childrens-hospital-overflowing-with-patients-suffering-from-respiratory-illnesses/
Looking at my local Fox newscast this morning just as I finished up with reading Kaitlyn's summary. To my great relief they reported the CDC's actions fairly, emphasizing mandates (if any) would be matters for state and local authorities. Another local station, a Sinclair affiliate, has also had a sterling record of unbiased coverage of the health scene. Take away is that the Tucker Carlson types don't dominate health coverage in the conservative broadcast media and that's very heartening. Perhaps we don't have to be divided in everything.
My impression is that Fox News is fairly reasonable in its accuracy. It is the Fox commentators (whom many seem to believe are providing real news rather than political propaganda) who distort reality with their untrue comments.
Oops, the pesky auto-correct strikes again. That should be Katelyn of course 😊
I appreciate the clarification about the CDC Vaccine schedule because I am starting to see some politicians using it as a vote-grab bullet point. Followup question for context - is the flu vaccine also on that schedule? To my knowledge, that has not been a mandate in MN for public education or daycare, so I presume that the COVID vaccine would follow that trend.
Unlike other vaccines like polio, neither of these are a sure-enough bet against getting sick for every family to want to assume their risk nor does getting them ensure a major squelch in transmission, so do you think that is the reasoning behind some being mandated vs others not?
Yea flu vaccine is also on the schedule. The table Katelyn posted basically disproves the idea that states inherently adopt the CDC schedule.
Hello, my 5 yo has his original series and then had his booster August 2022, when should he get his new booster? As a PA I find this so unclear and I feel like we need formal guidelines.
The guidance was at least 2 months after the last dose/infection. Waiting a bit longer may help increase the immune response/effectiveness. Doing something like just before Thanksgiving may make sense especially if you have plans to be with family for the holiday.
PS just so happens my family had COVID in May, so bc of that my 5-11 yo never got the booster (a virus booster I suppose). I wavered on whether to get her the booster before school this fall or wait for the bivalent. Decided to wait and she’ll get it soon so that’s 5 months which probably worked out pretty well.
Same boat!
Thank you. Our one candidate for governor, Senator Mastriano in Pennsylvania, is making a point of scaring people away from vaccinations for adults and adolescents. I appreciate data to help argue against his words.
Do NOT look to Denmark for help; they don’t give the vax to any healthy person under 50!
I'm not sure where to ask this, or where to look for information on it--are there rapid tests that use a saliva sample that are accurate? A rapid test for my son who can't tolerate nasal swabs would be super useful, and while a Google search turns up antigen tests with saliva samples are available in other countries, I don't see any that seem to be US based and I don't know how to tell if they're reliable.
A university system near me uses an FDA approved saliva COVID test, so they definitely exist. It’s called Clarifi. https://www.upstate.edu/whatsup/2021/051321-how-scientists-created-a-top-covid-19-test-that-uses-saliva.php
That’s really exciting! I found it, thank you so much! Extensive web searches suggest they’re not selling them just yet but it’s just a matter of time.
I’d be interested to know the basis upon which the early (2021) claims of safety in pregnancy were made given the lack of information at that time.
Depends when in 2021 you mean. By mid year many pregnant women had decided to get it and they were collecting data that was showing there were no known safety issues.
Unless you are asserting that VAERS is completely false, we can’t say there were *no* known safety issues; only that there were few known.
https://jessica5b3.substack.com/p/an-update-on-the-potential-dangers
Typical misuse and abuse of VAERS. Doesn’t look like anything to see here.
You antivaxxers are out in force with your retread easily debunked fear tactics tonight huh?
I’m pro-vaccine.
If you’ve got a link that demonstrates there were literally *no* known safety issues, I’d like to educate myself.
None unique to pregnant women/pregnancy is what I meant. I’m not denying the rare known side effects as with any vaccine or medicine.
I’ve seen many people asserting that adding the Covid vaccine to the recommended list is unprecedented because they are still EUA. How should we respond to this?
As KB says, you could point them to the truth, but I have a feeling that won't matter to at least some of them.
EUA means you are participating in a trial.
No it doesn’t. 😂
Loving all this news! Do you have any thoughts on mixing vaccine brands in the 5+ group? Both my kids got Pfizer x3 (last in May), and my youngest turns 6 next week so I'd like to do Moderna this round. I'm guessing there isn't specific data on kids
I saw some data on adults about mixing vaccine brands. It did seem that there was some evidence that Different mixtures might be more or less effective but the difference wasn't enough for me to continue investigating or thinking about it. I know as a parent you might be trying to do the very best thing for your child but for me personally when I looked at the different effectiveness in the different combinations it wasn't worth worrying about because they were all pretty good.
Are there any trials being done currently for an extra covid vaccine during pregnancy? Since we now seem to be on a one covid booster per year schedule, it's possible that depending on the date of their last dose, some pregnant individuals would not be eligible to get vaccinated during pregnancy. Given the increased risk for negative health outcomes for parent and fetus/child during/after pregnancy and the benefits of vaccination during pregnancy, I'm surprised I haven't seen anything about eligibility for additional boosters in this group.
MA just started requiring meningitis vaccine ACWY this year. https://www.mass.gov/info-details/school-immunizations.
Richard Moriarty, DM
Have the mRNA vaccines gotten full FDA approval for under 12? I thought they still had emergency approval. Interesting that they would add it to the childhood vaccine schedule without full approval. I hope that comes soon.