Thanks for this post. Not a bad idea to keep up a good supply of high-quality masks, which I use anyway on airplanes, etc. Psychologically prepare for another pandemic. Temporarily ban unpasteurized dairy products despite any calls for udder freedom.
And when they start weaponizing sewage, we will know that there are truly no depths to misguided public health reactionary behavior!
Clearly we need much more testing of asymptomatic animals. Cows of course but especially pigs: if this evolves the ability to spread among pigs, that would be ominous because pigs are often the species in which the next human strain evolves.
Just a reminder that "better and faster" is pretty much equivalent to saying we need to spend a shit-ton of money - the whole "fast, cheap, good - pick two!" principle. So that leaves the question of *who* should be on the hook for those costs, and the unpleasant answer is that we need to be taxing the crap out of meat and dairy products.
As a policy type I'd like to know which agencies have what roles in managing this outbreak. It seems like USDA is in the lead, and perhaps they didn't learned the communication lessons of COVID as other agencies have. Is that part of the reason for the lack of transparency, or is it all the meat/dairy industry?
Good question! Unfortunately, with many health and safety issues - food, transportation, health - federal authority is extremely limited in our federal system. Agencies like the USDA and CDC set bare minimum standards to prevent races to the bottom.
I am very concerned , but not really surprised, that government agencies (cdc, usda, fda) seem to be caught unprepared once again. The idea that they withhold data suggests that they might not actually have it. A CYA mechanism that has no place in public health. Also, the idea that industry can inhibit data acquisition and dissemination is outrageous. If there is a chance they are the incubator they need to be sterilized. Importantly, we need to make sure that this emerging potential crisis is not obliterated from headline news media by protests, court cases, elections or Melania’s dress.
Another model of clear communications on an important topic, with thanks to both you and Dr. Panthagani for the work that went into this. You have made a clear and convincing case that we have to do better, faster. I hope the call from both of you to do so will be heeded.
I completeley agree. And YLE, I'd love to know how the general public (like me) can raise our voices to advocate in support of the concerns you raised? Who and what agencies are most important to contact?
Given fomites and influenza I might get new hand sanitizer. Yes, it very well might not jump, but it just seems an inexpensive "just in case" precaution to have in the closet along with the good masks we always have these days.
I have a small backyard flock of hens that have a fenced in area to roam free. (Oregon) Wild birds have access to that area. Do I need to figure out some way to keep all my hens inside a coop all the time?
My niece's flock in Virginia is tested by the local extension agent. It's possible an open flock might be more susceptible to infection from wild birds but I also believe the greatest risk is to the huge commercial flocks kept in close confinement. Sunlight and fresh air can make a difference.
I would also be interested in knowing if eggs or meat from an infected bird is a problem or does cooking destroy the virus?
Hopefully government officials are reaching out to their counterparts in Asia and asking for advice in how to navigate H5N1. It's a common part of life over there and they have navigated it well enough.
I am curious to see if these cows could also have a bit of immune dysfunction from prior covid infection from their handlers. Immune dysfunction could occur in humans from Covid making those persons more susceptible to other infections. Should at min. Test for Spike IgG and IgM in animals with symptoms from flu and move on from there. In 2021 wild deer were sampled and over 40% were positive for covid antibodies.
Thank you and thanks for the comments. Always very appreciated and interesting.
From my perspective more clear and humble presentations by experts will also highlight gaps in knowledge allowing even more controversy.
A TED talk by James Randi, Homeopathy, Quackery, and Fraud, provides some insight into the challenges of conveying facts to those in society who seem driven to believe objectively false concepts.
Note that while the federal regulation reads well, that some states EXCLUDE some things from being considered garbage that I suspect most of us would automatically consider garbage.
Do not read the state exclusions close to a meal time if you get nauseated.
Thanks for this post. Not a bad idea to keep up a good supply of high-quality masks, which I use anyway on airplanes, etc. Psychologically prepare for another pandemic. Temporarily ban unpasteurized dairy products despite any calls for udder freedom.
And when they start weaponizing sewage, we will know that there are truly no depths to misguided public health reactionary behavior!
I’m paying more attention by the day.
Love the word play of “udder freedom!” Makes my linguist heart jump for joy.
Thanks Dave! You made my day that someone caught that... Feel free to drop a comeback pun anytime ;)
I think you mean UNpasteurized products. That is the same type of typo I am prone toward; I think we all are.
Thank you, and corrected it! I was dictating so I will blame AutoCorrect 🤨
Clearly we need much more testing of asymptomatic animals. Cows of course but especially pigs: if this evolves the ability to spread among pigs, that would be ominous because pigs are often the species in which the next human strain evolves.
Are poultry scraps and poultry litter prohibited from being in pig feed and pig litter in the U.S.? How well is that enforced?
I recently read that the rules for this were relaxed in 2018 (guess what administration that was) and it is allowed as a percentage of feed.
Poultry litter belongs on the ground to fertilize the crops that the cows eat, not in their feed.
Which makes me wonder what happens to the carcasses of the chicken flocks testing positive which are culled.
How well is anything enforced?
Good question!
Just a reminder that "better and faster" is pretty much equivalent to saying we need to spend a shit-ton of money - the whole "fast, cheap, good - pick two!" principle. So that leaves the question of *who* should be on the hook for those costs, and the unpleasant answer is that we need to be taxing the crap out of meat and dairy products.
As a policy type I'd like to know which agencies have what roles in managing this outbreak. It seems like USDA is in the lead, and perhaps they didn't learned the communication lessons of COVID as other agencies have. Is that part of the reason for the lack of transparency, or is it all the meat/dairy industry?
Good question! Unfortunately, with many health and safety issues - food, transportation, health - federal authority is extremely limited in our federal system. Agencies like the USDA and CDC set bare minimum standards to prevent races to the bottom.
I am very concerned , but not really surprised, that government agencies (cdc, usda, fda) seem to be caught unprepared once again. The idea that they withhold data suggests that they might not actually have it. A CYA mechanism that has no place in public health. Also, the idea that industry can inhibit data acquisition and dissemination is outrageous. If there is a chance they are the incubator they need to be sterilized. Importantly, we need to make sure that this emerging potential crisis is not obliterated from headline news media by protests, court cases, elections or Melania’s dress.
Another model of clear communications on an important topic, with thanks to both you and Dr. Panthagani for the work that went into this. You have made a clear and convincing case that we have to do better, faster. I hope the call from both of you to do so will be heeded.
I completeley agree. And YLE, I'd love to know how the general public (like me) can raise our voices to advocate in support of the concerns you raised? Who and what agencies are most important to contact?
Yes, PLEASE let's not repeat miscommunication and lack of communication mistakes from COVID!
Given fomites and influenza I might get new hand sanitizer. Yes, it very well might not jump, but it just seems an inexpensive "just in case" precaution to have in the closet along with the good masks we always have these days.
I have a small backyard flock of hens that have a fenced in area to roam free. (Oregon) Wild birds have access to that area. Do I need to figure out some way to keep all my hens inside a coop all the time?
My niece's flock in Virginia is tested by the local extension agent. It's possible an open flock might be more susceptible to infection from wild birds but I also believe the greatest risk is to the huge commercial flocks kept in close confinement. Sunlight and fresh air can make a difference.
I would also be interested in knowing if eggs or meat from an infected bird is a problem or does cooking destroy the virus?
Hopefully government officials are reaching out to their counterparts in Asia and asking for advice in how to navigate H5N1. It's a common part of life over there and they have navigated it well enough.
I am curious to see if these cows could also have a bit of immune dysfunction from prior covid infection from their handlers. Immune dysfunction could occur in humans from Covid making those persons more susceptible to other infections. Should at min. Test for Spike IgG and IgM in animals with symptoms from flu and move on from there. In 2021 wild deer were sampled and over 40% were positive for covid antibodies.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04353-x
Here’s another one.
https://www.unmc.edu/healthsecurity/transmission/2023/08/29/latest-covid-twist-coronavirus-is-spreading-in-deer-study-finds-and-many-are-getting-it-from-humans/#:~:text=They%20also%20found%2C%20by%20examining,at%20one%20point%20in%20time.
I hear they are having a prion problem now implicating effects on carnivores that eat them. The same now for for cows, pigs, goats and humans with avian flu? This link is from New Zealand’s public health and puts together some concerning research regarding Long covid. https://www.phcc.org.nz/briefing/long-covid-aotearoa-nz-risk-assessment-and-preventive-action-urgently-needed
Thank you and thanks for the comments. Always very appreciated and interesting.
From my perspective more clear and humble presentations by experts will also highlight gaps in knowledge allowing even more controversy.
A TED talk by James Randi, Homeopathy, Quackery, and Fraud, provides some insight into the challenges of conveying facts to those in society who seem driven to believe objectively false concepts.
We live in a fallen world.
See:
https://aldf.org/article/the-federal-swine-health-protection-act/
Note that while the federal regulation reads well, that some states EXCLUDE some things from being considered garbage that I suspect most of us would automatically consider garbage.
Do not read the state exclusions close to a meal time if you get nauseated.
I did not check that write-up. A dear friend rapidly sent it on to me and it appears to be thorough.
Thank you YLE!
Would love to see a public health / One Health veterinarian involved in future posts on this topic!
Blast from the past:
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/nvs_tx_logistics_exercise.pdf