"I think is greatly underappreciated is that 90% of adults got the first Covid-19 vaccine. When was the last time 90% of Americans agreed on something?"
I hardly believe that you believe this is a logical argument. 90% didn't agree to take it. We may never know how many took it only because their livelihood depended on it, or because they wanted to travel or because they were told that it was necessary to live their lives or protect their loved ones well after our agencies of public health knew it wouldn't stop transmission.
Only about 70% took the second shot of the primary series. Why would that be? Perhaps because their reaction to the first shot was bad enough that they didn't feel a second was worth the risk? Fewer took the first booster and even fewer took subsequent boosters. Right now only about 8% of the public has taken the last updated booster.
The public is smarter than you realize. They know that even if they provided a benefit, it would be for a brief period. We are talking about vaccinating against an RNA virus which mutates much faster than DNA viruses. This has always been an exercise in futility.
We should all ask ourselves how can we possibly know how many lives the Covid vaccine campaign actually saved. The CDC makes no distinction between people who died WITH Covid from those who died FROM Covid. Furthermore these estimations are based on vaccine effectiveness. Where does that number come from? Uh-oh, it comes from mortality rates among the vaccinated vs unvaccinated and once again there is no differentiation between FROM and WITH in regard to that metric either. It's all based in assumptions.
It's really quite interesting that you argue that vaccine mandates are a good thing and exemptions are bad. If you believe the CDC should have the authority to impel our government to mandate a vaccine or any medical therapy upon the public, the public should have the authority to hold vaccine manufacturers liable for damages caused by their product. Anything short of that is medical tyranny.
I did research on this dingbat here so you don't have to read his tripe, gentle readers. He's an anesthesiologist, which means his area of expertise is putting people to sleep, which is what all his posts do.
I'm happy for him to keep posting on this forum, if that's what he gets to do in exchange for supporting our heroine, Dr Jetelina. That doesn't mean we actually need to read his rubbish or respond to any of his Gish gallops (which also get quite tiring; again with putting people to sleep! Seriously this knucklehead should stick to his day job)
Not only is he an ardent anti-vaxer, he's a 9/11 "skeptic", he thinks that the 10/7 Hamas attack was an inside job, and a climate denier to boot. What a guy.
I am so confused. President Trump spearheaded Operation Warpspeed, one of the most impressive responses to a public health emergency in living memory. Even if the vaccines aren’t perfect, they are surely a useful tool for preventing severe disease in the vulnerable. Our family prefers Novavax because the mRNA vaccine side effects are unpleasant. We are grateful to have that choice.
I asked you some genuine, respectful questions beneath a comment you posted last week, but you haven’t replied.
This forum is full of people curious to know what the approach to public health soon may be. People here are open-minded. You are right — the public _is_ smart. They want transparency and respectful, clear communication. They want answers.
I couldn't find your questions beneath my comment last week.
I would agree that there are many curious and open minded people here. However they are overshadowed by angry and fearful voices that treat positions skeptical of Katelyn's as heresy.
If we want a public health system that addresses public health scientifically and ethically we have to first come to an understanding of what the current problems are.
Take Operation Warp Speed. One thing we can agree on is that it was a rapid response. But it was TOO rapid. It is impossible to understand what the long term benefits and repercussions are in the short term no matter how much money you throw at the problem.
Most of the public did not realize that there was stiff opposition to the authorization of the first mRNA Covid shots for that reason. Those of us who tried to express our concern were suppressed, however Pfizer made a big concession: they would run their trial for a full two years with true saline placebo as the control group. If there were long term harmful outcomes we would eventually know in a couple of years. You cannot understand harm accurately once a vaccine is given to the public because of all the confounders.
But then, as soon as they published their groundbreaking efficacy numbers, the public and more importantly the FDA and the CDC looked away when Pfizer slyly said that it would be unethical to not give their control group the vaccine after a few months.
First, the 95% efficacy they claimed was very short lived, if there was one at all (combing through the trial protocols proves that Pfizer's investigators tested only 1 in 20 symptomatic participants for Covid. This means their efficacy numbers are not substantiated). Nevertheless, even if the shots were that good that is no reason to vaccinate the control group before the promised two years have expired. If there were deleterious effects in 6, 12, 24 months we will never know for sure.
Mortality rates in nearly every age group began to climb in 2021. These rates were occurring in highly employed adults, i.e. people who were healthy enough to work and were likely vaccinated by their employers mandate. This is blamed on long-covid, suicide, drug abuse, etc., etc. Everything but the vaccine.
For the first time in a very long time, life expectancy dropped for Americans in 2022. We cannot know if the vaccines were responsible or partially responsible for this alarming trend. What we DO know for sure is that there is no appetite in our agencies of public health to do what is necessary to rule out the vaccine as a possible cause.
So if you want transparency you should demand that the FDA and CDC admit that this is actually the present state. When authors of popular newsletters like this do not openly admit these simple facts and only slam the skeptics while asking for more transparency and discussion it points to something very insidious.
Looking forward, we as the public should demand that vaccines are properly tested against saline placebos and that vaccine manufacturers be held liable for harm. These two things apply to medicines, but not vaccines. In fact only one is required. If we require vaccine manufacturers pay damages in cases of harm you can bet that they would test their product against a saline placebo before they sold them to a hundred million people.
This is what RFK Jr. has been saying for years. Ask yourself why then has the medial portrayed him as an antiscience nutjob? Who would be interested in suppressing such a sensible strategy? These are the kinds of questions that we should be asking and discussing on a public forum of this size.
Vaccine exemption from liability is an interesting situation dating back many years. In 1986 you had the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act and then in 2005 you had the Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness Act (PREPA). These were highly contested and hotly debated and there was a lot of public relations money spent. There was talk of vaccines needing exemption because the profit inherent in broadscale vaccination was so small that a profit could not be made if there was a possibility of having to pay out for bad behavior. The manufacturers were noble and well intentioned and did not need the cudgel stick of liability suits to keep them in the right lane. Hello?
There was also discussion of the inherent danger in the formulation of vaccines. Here is something from the National Library of Medicine’s National Center for Biotechnology Information, “Unavoidably unsafe products. There are some products which, in the present state of human knowledge, are quite incapable of being made safe for their intended and ordinary use. These are especially common in the field of drugs. An outstanding example is the vaccine for the Pasteur treatment of rabies, which not uncommonly leads to very serious and damaging consequences when it is injected.”
So some vaccines are so dangerous, but so effective, that they need to be exempt from product liability.
And this from Wikipedia’s PREPA entry, “Vaccine manufacturers lobbied for the legislation, which would effectively preempt state vaccine safety laws in the case of an emergency declaration by HHS, by making clear they would not produce new vaccines unless the legislation was enacted.”
So much for states being in charge here.
So this is complex and a bit of a mess. What is it? Did we create a marketplace where vaccine manufacturers were exempt from liability because otherwise they would not make the money they honestly deserved and then they realized they could use a novel technology platform using messenger RNA to very quickly and inexpensively roll out things called vaccines that did not stop infection of transmission, although they did boost antibodies for a limited time. And they could then use that platform for a lot of other “vaccines” and keep their exemption and supercharge their profits. Have whatever feelings you want about vaccines and public health, but could we have a marketplace that is not well designed for human business practices?
So, there may be something of a self-corrective nature here. I'm all for vaccines and mandates and such; and ditching them will affect everyone. But, like Franklin's lighting rod, the people who eschew vaccines most will likely be the most affected. It will be a sad few years, but at some point, people will realize that they've lost children because of their refusal to follow best practices. That's likely to help return us back to the best course. It's unfortunate that many in those communities as well as the rest of us who will be harmed by the lack of herd immunity will need to suffer to get there, but, get there we likely will.
But isn't that kind of always the case? "Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it" and all that? The biggest downside is that the children of irresponsible parents will get sick and some may suffer greatly. The other unfortunate part is that those of us who try to follow best practices also suffer, do to both increased disease in the community causing spillover and the other costs of having increased illness.
The best thing we can do, I fear, is meticulously bear witness. Keep writing, but not to convince people now - future generations will need instruction manuals for rebuilding a functioning public health system.
I admire your optimism about people realizing at some future point that their refusal to follow best practices is what will have caused the loss of their children. My optimism has been forever dimmed by the last few years of watching these people double-down on their ignorance of facts and scientific proof in favor of whatever they've heard on Fox or OAN. I sincerely hope that you are right and I am wrong.
George Washington mandated inoculation against smallpox for troops in 1777. This is a longstanding US tradition that I hope stands the test of time. Thanks for reassurance that our current system may be difficult to undermine.
That's an important fact that seems worth repeating often in the present climate. Perhaps it will have some vibe appeal to the tri-corner-hat, don't-tread-on-me set.
meanwhile, the nominee for secdef apparently has antivax leanings. From his latest book:
“At a basic level, do we really want only the woke ‘diverse’ recruits that the Biden administration is curating to be the ones with the guns and the guidons?” Hegseth wrote in “The War on Warriors,” which was published in June.
“We want those diverse recruits — pumped full of vaccines and even more poisonous ideologies — to be sharing a basic training bunk with sane Americans,” he said.
Many people deem to believe that the reason for vaccine mandates, as for schoolchildren, is to protect the children who get the vaccines. This strikes some people as something a nanny-state would do — forcing people to protect themselves, and trampling on individual autonomy. But really, a large part of requiring ME to get immunized is to protect YOU from me, and to establish herd immunity that protects those for whom vaccine is unsafe and those people in whom the vaccine fails. Health departments sometimes act as though the reasons to get vaccinated are selfish, whereas in fact they are very largely in the interest of the community as a whole — thus the justification for mandates. As is often the case, this is in large part a communication issue.
I was in San Antonio for the last big Diphtheria epidemic in the 1960s. Vaccinations were not mandated by state law for school attendance, and poor people could not afford doctor’s visits. The local health department only started a vaccination campaign after people died.
I saw cases of SSPE ( post measles deadly brain disease ) and boys sterilized by Mumps in medical school in the 1970s.
I assumed those days were in the dark ages. Guess not.
As far as I know, no national medical organization has censured Lapado. He was a member of the American College of Physicians ( largest national organizations of Internists ) but his current Florida CV says he quit in 2021, but he remains listed as a peer reviewer for many top medical journals including JAMA, Annals of Internal Medicine etc.
It is time every physician, epidemiologist and professional society stand up to this charlatan. When kids are intubated from polio respiratory failure, dead from diphtheria and SSPE maybe folks will wake up. It shouldn’t be hard to get Vance and Musk to support mumps vaccinations, given the effect Mumps orchitis and sterilization would have on his insistence the USA needs more children.
“One statistic I think is greatly underappreciated is that 90% of adults got the first Covid-19 vaccine.”
Perhaps, but do you think maybe these three factors had any effect - over promoted fear, sweetening enticements such as pizza and Krispy Kreme, and the cudgel of employment severances with no benefits or protections. Not to mention pure shaming up and down the culture. And now we have legal cases rewarding those few who could resist, such as Lisa Domski who worked for Blue Cross Blue Shield in Michigan and was just awarded $12.7 million. Public Health (sic) managed to browbeat and force march so many without recognition of the validity of natural immunity. Remember what the Senior VP for Pfizer in Europe said in testimony before the European Parlement. When asked if Pfizer tested the “vaccine” in terms of its ability to stop infection and transmission, the Pfizer woman said, “no, we had to move at the speed of science.” Perhaps the scientists should have been stopped for speeding!
“In the United States, vaccine policy is primarily governed by individual states rather than the federal government.”
True, but many states, especially Blue states, adopt Federal CDC guidance almost without question. Many state administrators/regulators/bureaucrats want to simply adopt federal rules. Life is so much easier that way. We are going to see a tremendous push at the state level for more exemptions. Maine, CT, NY, WV and CA are the five states that allow no exemption, personal or religious. Mississippi was in that category until July 2023 when the Informed Consent Action Network won a suit there. Oh, by the way, the suit was won by the concerted action of Del Bigtree, who has masterminded much of RFKJr.’s media strategy for the last year and a half, and Aaron Siri, Esquire. Siri is already on the march in the five recalcitrant states. It won’t be long. Religion is back on the scene. Remember what’s in the first phrase of the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights? “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free expression thereof”. We are not talking permissions or perquisites anything conferred. We are talking inalienable rights endowed by God. Oh my god!!
“Given that the United States has one of the world’s most rigorous review processes for vaccine safety and effectiveness,”
You have to be kidding!
I would suggest you try even harder to grapple with where we are and how we got here, as the new sheriffs in town are going to be tougher guys!
Right. I think a simple financial incentive would have better - for instance, the 2021 round of pandemic aid could have been contingent on getting vaccinated (or producing a valid medical excuse).
Katelyn, this NYT opinion piece today seems right up your alley of trying to improve trust in public health through more transparent communication of data, reasons, and nuance.
I have to say that while I agree that vaccines have proven to save lives and my family and I continue to get the recommended vaccines, part of the reluctance is due to the lack of truthfulness that came out of the public health community during the pandemic. I would hope that a diligent focus on transparency will reduce the reluctance to vaccinate. Jeopardizing lives based on little or no real information is a tragedy.
While there was certainly politically motivated accusations that were untrue there were some mandates that were of unknown efficacy; like cloth masks which we later learned were of limited to no value. In hindsight it would have been much better to say “we believe” that masks will be effective instead of forcing a mandate that later proves to be false. Further, the only real mask testing data did not come from the organizations that were in charge of public health but from private individuals who did their own testing. That in and of itself is not a good look for our public health leadership.
there was a lot of learning that was misinterpreted (often deliberately) as 'they lied!". Even cloth masks are somewhat effective (you even said, 'limited', but the public claims 'no'). They do measurably reduce source droplet expulsion. but if effective is artificially defined as 'recipient fully protected' then even n95s aren't effective. a measurable % reduction is just that, and in a high rate, repeat exposure situation, recipient barriers can only do so much. but it's not nothing. just like vaccines 'still let you get sick, so they don't work!', the whole messaging and expectation is a big part of the problem.
Also with masks, the problem started with the flip when we learned covid actually was airborne vs what was thought at the start. people lost trust because 'we lied to them about needing masks', when actually it _did_ start where we thought only medico's need good masks because only in certain procedures (e.g., intubation) did it aerosolize.
Messaging about in-progress learning created bad perception from a public that was (still is) very receptive to accusations of malfeasance. but i still haven't seen the accusations actually hold up.
N95 are greater than 95%effective. Most people would agree that they are effective. Cloth masks were at best half that. While something is better than nothing that is certainly not what a reasonable person would assume when public health professional say the will help and are effective. Further, it later was shown via messages that Dr Fauci knew this and later admitted to it but he didnt believe the public could handle the truth. My point is the public health community is suffering from public distrust, whether you believe it is deserved or not. The solution is complete transparency and consistency in transparency. If you aren’t sure says so. We will likely never agree.
"My point is the public health community is suffering from public distrust, whether you believe it is deserved or not. The solution is complete transparency and consistency in transparency. If you aren’t sure says so. "
My point is if you are learning say so. If you’re not sure say so. Don’t state a policy based on effectiveness and then tell us “we can’t handle the truth.” That is definitely not transparent. We will probably never agree on this.
Washington state had 14 whooping cough cases last year to date. Presently 600+ whooping cough and chicken pox. I think the attitude is childhood disease, must not be serious. This opinion is likely from vaccinated adults/parents who never had the disease. Old enough to have had ALL of them, and they aren't fun!
With bird flu spreading, vaccine policy and development are so important to public health.
I am still waiting on the nasal vaccine for Covid that prevents you from being infected with Covid versus the current "vaccines" which mitigate the disease once you have it.
I am not wealthy enough to travel to India.
I am glad that I am retiring to a state that is low on handing out exceptions to vaccines.
With Trump it will all get worse when nonexperts are given authority over policy.
Mississippi now has a religious exemption for vaccines. We have been number one in vaccine compliance for years because we had no exemptions. The policy is that if you claim religious exemption, you must make an appt at the health department for them to inform you about vaccines and watch a short film.
I can see an impending attack on vaccinology focusing more on distribution than on continued R&D and manufacturing. The latter, of course, are within the fabric of entrepreneurialism. Distribution fits into the social aspect of health care access (redistribution): decreasing/elimination of cost-sharing subsidies in Obamacare, diminishing Medicaid availability, removal of cost-sharing protection from vaccinations (et al. preventive care), banning of vaccine mandates except for specified businesses.
The Red-state approach: schedule an appointment with your PCP to receive whatever vaccinations—probably without insurance coverage.
First approach (work-around) by the epidemiologists--to start obtaining private funding for nation-wide free vaccine clinics (maybe start with Federally Qualified Healthcare Centers).
The thought of erecting barriers to life- and health-saving vaccines really gets my goat!
I am a board certified pediatrician, father, grandfather and former Commissioner of public health in Texas.
Are vaccines perfect? No, but name me one thing in this world that is.
Have vaccines saved the lives of millions and averted the tragedy of childhood death that stalked the human race for millennia on end? A Resounding Heck Yeah!
I'm gonna stop here 'cause you know where I'm coming from.
As I have posted before on this topic, I am contacting my representatives in Congress - especially my Senators and pleading - PLEADING - with them to refuse to confirm members of the Trump administration who present a risk to public health and thereby literally threaten the lives of my grandchildren.
If you are similarly inclined, pull out all the rhetorical stops - but be civil along the way. Having worked in state government for 14 years, I have both abiding respect for ALL elected officials (that is our system) and more practically, your job is to persuade, not to irk. Don't make it easy for them to stop listening, stop taking you seriously.
We must be both realistic and optimistic. If enough of us speak up, the threats to the common good will evaporate. Why? Because Trump's loosey-goosey style of campaigning means he says lots of stuff intended to get him in office and run ideas up the flagpole to see who salutes, but he (cunningly) knows he can ignore those musings if the price of fulfillment is too high.
On a more optimistic note, you observed that the large majority of people support vaccines. Given that every administration wants to be popular, including the incoming US administration, it may be best to wait and see what particular proposals come forward.
Sadly, Americans that voted for this nightmare have shown that evidence based decision making means nothing!
"I think is greatly underappreciated is that 90% of adults got the first Covid-19 vaccine. When was the last time 90% of Americans agreed on something?"
I hardly believe that you believe this is a logical argument. 90% didn't agree to take it. We may never know how many took it only because their livelihood depended on it, or because they wanted to travel or because they were told that it was necessary to live their lives or protect their loved ones well after our agencies of public health knew it wouldn't stop transmission.
Only about 70% took the second shot of the primary series. Why would that be? Perhaps because their reaction to the first shot was bad enough that they didn't feel a second was worth the risk? Fewer took the first booster and even fewer took subsequent boosters. Right now only about 8% of the public has taken the last updated booster.
The public is smarter than you realize. They know that even if they provided a benefit, it would be for a brief period. We are talking about vaccinating against an RNA virus which mutates much faster than DNA viruses. This has always been an exercise in futility.
We should all ask ourselves how can we possibly know how many lives the Covid vaccine campaign actually saved. The CDC makes no distinction between people who died WITH Covid from those who died FROM Covid. Furthermore these estimations are based on vaccine effectiveness. Where does that number come from? Uh-oh, it comes from mortality rates among the vaccinated vs unvaccinated and once again there is no differentiation between FROM and WITH in regard to that metric either. It's all based in assumptions.
It's really quite interesting that you argue that vaccine mandates are a good thing and exemptions are bad. If you believe the CDC should have the authority to impel our government to mandate a vaccine or any medical therapy upon the public, the public should have the authority to hold vaccine manufacturers liable for damages caused by their product. Anything short of that is medical tyranny.
I did research on this dingbat here so you don't have to read his tripe, gentle readers. He's an anesthesiologist, which means his area of expertise is putting people to sleep, which is what all his posts do.
I'm happy for him to keep posting on this forum, if that's what he gets to do in exchange for supporting our heroine, Dr Jetelina. That doesn't mean we actually need to read his rubbish or respond to any of his Gish gallops (which also get quite tiring; again with putting people to sleep! Seriously this knucklehead should stick to his day job)
Not only is he an ardent anti-vaxer, he's a 9/11 "skeptic", he thinks that the 10/7 Hamas attack was an inside job, and a climate denier to boot. What a guy.
I am so confused. President Trump spearheaded Operation Warpspeed, one of the most impressive responses to a public health emergency in living memory. Even if the vaccines aren’t perfect, they are surely a useful tool for preventing severe disease in the vulnerable. Our family prefers Novavax because the mRNA vaccine side effects are unpleasant. We are grateful to have that choice.
I asked you some genuine, respectful questions beneath a comment you posted last week, but you haven’t replied.
This forum is full of people curious to know what the approach to public health soon may be. People here are open-minded. You are right — the public _is_ smart. They want transparency and respectful, clear communication. They want answers.
We are listening.
I couldn't find your questions beneath my comment last week.
I would agree that there are many curious and open minded people here. However they are overshadowed by angry and fearful voices that treat positions skeptical of Katelyn's as heresy.
If we want a public health system that addresses public health scientifically and ethically we have to first come to an understanding of what the current problems are.
Take Operation Warp Speed. One thing we can agree on is that it was a rapid response. But it was TOO rapid. It is impossible to understand what the long term benefits and repercussions are in the short term no matter how much money you throw at the problem.
Most of the public did not realize that there was stiff opposition to the authorization of the first mRNA Covid shots for that reason. Those of us who tried to express our concern were suppressed, however Pfizer made a big concession: they would run their trial for a full two years with true saline placebo as the control group. If there were long term harmful outcomes we would eventually know in a couple of years. You cannot understand harm accurately once a vaccine is given to the public because of all the confounders.
But then, as soon as they published their groundbreaking efficacy numbers, the public and more importantly the FDA and the CDC looked away when Pfizer slyly said that it would be unethical to not give their control group the vaccine after a few months.
First, the 95% efficacy they claimed was very short lived, if there was one at all (combing through the trial protocols proves that Pfizer's investigators tested only 1 in 20 symptomatic participants for Covid. This means their efficacy numbers are not substantiated). Nevertheless, even if the shots were that good that is no reason to vaccinate the control group before the promised two years have expired. If there were deleterious effects in 6, 12, 24 months we will never know for sure.
Mortality rates in nearly every age group began to climb in 2021. These rates were occurring in highly employed adults, i.e. people who were healthy enough to work and were likely vaccinated by their employers mandate. This is blamed on long-covid, suicide, drug abuse, etc., etc. Everything but the vaccine.
For the first time in a very long time, life expectancy dropped for Americans in 2022. We cannot know if the vaccines were responsible or partially responsible for this alarming trend. What we DO know for sure is that there is no appetite in our agencies of public health to do what is necessary to rule out the vaccine as a possible cause.
So if you want transparency you should demand that the FDA and CDC admit that this is actually the present state. When authors of popular newsletters like this do not openly admit these simple facts and only slam the skeptics while asking for more transparency and discussion it points to something very insidious.
Looking forward, we as the public should demand that vaccines are properly tested against saline placebos and that vaccine manufacturers be held liable for harm. These two things apply to medicines, but not vaccines. In fact only one is required. If we require vaccine manufacturers pay damages in cases of harm you can bet that they would test their product against a saline placebo before they sold them to a hundred million people.
This is what RFK Jr. has been saying for years. Ask yourself why then has the medial portrayed him as an antiscience nutjob? Who would be interested in suppressing such a sensible strategy? These are the kinds of questions that we should be asking and discussing on a public forum of this size.
Vaccine exemption from liability is an interesting situation dating back many years. In 1986 you had the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act and then in 2005 you had the Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness Act (PREPA). These were highly contested and hotly debated and there was a lot of public relations money spent. There was talk of vaccines needing exemption because the profit inherent in broadscale vaccination was so small that a profit could not be made if there was a possibility of having to pay out for bad behavior. The manufacturers were noble and well intentioned and did not need the cudgel stick of liability suits to keep them in the right lane. Hello?
There was also discussion of the inherent danger in the formulation of vaccines. Here is something from the National Library of Medicine’s National Center for Biotechnology Information, “Unavoidably unsafe products. There are some products which, in the present state of human knowledge, are quite incapable of being made safe for their intended and ordinary use. These are especially common in the field of drugs. An outstanding example is the vaccine for the Pasteur treatment of rabies, which not uncommonly leads to very serious and damaging consequences when it is injected.”
So some vaccines are so dangerous, but so effective, that they need to be exempt from product liability.
And this from Wikipedia’s PREPA entry, “Vaccine manufacturers lobbied for the legislation, which would effectively preempt state vaccine safety laws in the case of an emergency declaration by HHS, by making clear they would not produce new vaccines unless the legislation was enacted.”
So much for states being in charge here.
So this is complex and a bit of a mess. What is it? Did we create a marketplace where vaccine manufacturers were exempt from liability because otherwise they would not make the money they honestly deserved and then they realized they could use a novel technology platform using messenger RNA to very quickly and inexpensively roll out things called vaccines that did not stop infection of transmission, although they did boost antibodies for a limited time. And they could then use that platform for a lot of other “vaccines” and keep their exemption and supercharge their profits. Have whatever feelings you want about vaccines and public health, but could we have a marketplace that is not well designed for human business practices?
So, there may be something of a self-corrective nature here. I'm all for vaccines and mandates and such; and ditching them will affect everyone. But, like Franklin's lighting rod, the people who eschew vaccines most will likely be the most affected. It will be a sad few years, but at some point, people will realize that they've lost children because of their refusal to follow best practices. That's likely to help return us back to the best course. It's unfortunate that many in those communities as well as the rest of us who will be harmed by the lack of herd immunity will need to suffer to get there, but, get there we likely will.
My pessimistic side thinks this is exactly what will happen. We have to go backward to go forward
But isn't that kind of always the case? "Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it" and all that? The biggest downside is that the children of irresponsible parents will get sick and some may suffer greatly. The other unfortunate part is that those of us who try to follow best practices also suffer, do to both increased disease in the community causing spillover and the other costs of having increased illness.
The best thing we can do, I fear, is meticulously bear witness. Keep writing, but not to convince people now - future generations will need instruction manuals for rebuilding a functioning public health system.
I admire your optimism about people realizing at some future point that their refusal to follow best practices is what will have caused the loss of their children. My optimism has been forever dimmed by the last few years of watching these people double-down on their ignorance of facts and scientific proof in favor of whatever they've heard on Fox or OAN. I sincerely hope that you are right and I am wrong.
George Washington mandated inoculation against smallpox for troops in 1777. This is a longstanding US tradition that I hope stands the test of time. Thanks for reassurance that our current system may be difficult to undermine.
That's an important fact that seems worth repeating often in the present climate. Perhaps it will have some vibe appeal to the tri-corner-hat, don't-tread-on-me set.
meanwhile, the nominee for secdef apparently has antivax leanings. From his latest book:
“At a basic level, do we really want only the woke ‘diverse’ recruits that the Biden administration is curating to be the ones with the guns and the guidons?” Hegseth wrote in “The War on Warriors,” which was published in June.
“We want those diverse recruits — pumped full of vaccines and even more poisonous ideologies — to be sharing a basic training bunk with sane Americans,” he said.
sigh.
Many people deem to believe that the reason for vaccine mandates, as for schoolchildren, is to protect the children who get the vaccines. This strikes some people as something a nanny-state would do — forcing people to protect themselves, and trampling on individual autonomy. But really, a large part of requiring ME to get immunized is to protect YOU from me, and to establish herd immunity that protects those for whom vaccine is unsafe and those people in whom the vaccine fails. Health departments sometimes act as though the reasons to get vaccinated are selfish, whereas in fact they are very largely in the interest of the community as a whole — thus the justification for mandates. As is often the case, this is in large part a communication issue.
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/abs/10.7326/0003-4819-75-4-495
I was in San Antonio for the last big Diphtheria epidemic in the 1960s. Vaccinations were not mandated by state law for school attendance, and poor people could not afford doctor’s visits. The local health department only started a vaccination campaign after people died.
I saw cases of SSPE ( post measles deadly brain disease ) and boys sterilized by Mumps in medical school in the 1970s.
I assumed those days were in the dark ages. Guess not.
As far as I know, no national medical organization has censured Lapado. He was a member of the American College of Physicians ( largest national organizations of Internists ) but his current Florida CV says he quit in 2021, but he remains listed as a peer reviewer for many top medical journals including JAMA, Annals of Internal Medicine etc.
It is time every physician, epidemiologist and professional society stand up to this charlatan. When kids are intubated from polio respiratory failure, dead from diphtheria and SSPE maybe folks will wake up. It shouldn’t be hard to get Vance and Musk to support mumps vaccinations, given the effect Mumps orchitis and sterilization would have on his insistence the USA needs more children.
“One statistic I think is greatly underappreciated is that 90% of adults got the first Covid-19 vaccine.”
Perhaps, but do you think maybe these three factors had any effect - over promoted fear, sweetening enticements such as pizza and Krispy Kreme, and the cudgel of employment severances with no benefits or protections. Not to mention pure shaming up and down the culture. And now we have legal cases rewarding those few who could resist, such as Lisa Domski who worked for Blue Cross Blue Shield in Michigan and was just awarded $12.7 million. Public Health (sic) managed to browbeat and force march so many without recognition of the validity of natural immunity. Remember what the Senior VP for Pfizer in Europe said in testimony before the European Parlement. When asked if Pfizer tested the “vaccine” in terms of its ability to stop infection and transmission, the Pfizer woman said, “no, we had to move at the speed of science.” Perhaps the scientists should have been stopped for speeding!
“In the United States, vaccine policy is primarily governed by individual states rather than the federal government.”
True, but many states, especially Blue states, adopt Federal CDC guidance almost without question. Many state administrators/regulators/bureaucrats want to simply adopt federal rules. Life is so much easier that way. We are going to see a tremendous push at the state level for more exemptions. Maine, CT, NY, WV and CA are the five states that allow no exemption, personal or religious. Mississippi was in that category until July 2023 when the Informed Consent Action Network won a suit there. Oh, by the way, the suit was won by the concerted action of Del Bigtree, who has masterminded much of RFKJr.’s media strategy for the last year and a half, and Aaron Siri, Esquire. Siri is already on the march in the five recalcitrant states. It won’t be long. Religion is back on the scene. Remember what’s in the first phrase of the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights? “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free expression thereof”. We are not talking permissions or perquisites anything conferred. We are talking inalienable rights endowed by God. Oh my god!!
“Given that the United States has one of the world’s most rigorous review processes for vaccine safety and effectiveness,”
You have to be kidding!
I would suggest you try even harder to grapple with where we are and how we got here, as the new sheriffs in town are going to be tougher guys!
Right. I think a simple financial incentive would have better - for instance, the 2021 round of pandemic aid could have been contingent on getting vaccinated (or producing a valid medical excuse).
Katelyn, this NYT opinion piece today seems right up your alley of trying to improve trust in public health through more transparent communication of data, reasons, and nuance.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/13/opinion/vaccines-fluoride-raw-milk.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
I have to say that while I agree that vaccines have proven to save lives and my family and I continue to get the recommended vaccines, part of the reluctance is due to the lack of truthfulness that came out of the public health community during the pandemic. I would hope that a diligent focus on transparency will reduce the reluctance to vaccinate. Jeopardizing lives based on little or no real information is a tragedy.
I assume by 'lack of truthfulness' you mean accusations of untruthfulness, because most of it has been conspiracy laden rhetoric.
While there was certainly politically motivated accusations that were untrue there were some mandates that were of unknown efficacy; like cloth masks which we later learned were of limited to no value. In hindsight it would have been much better to say “we believe” that masks will be effective instead of forcing a mandate that later proves to be false. Further, the only real mask testing data did not come from the organizations that were in charge of public health but from private individuals who did their own testing. That in and of itself is not a good look for our public health leadership.
there was a lot of learning that was misinterpreted (often deliberately) as 'they lied!". Even cloth masks are somewhat effective (you even said, 'limited', but the public claims 'no'). They do measurably reduce source droplet expulsion. but if effective is artificially defined as 'recipient fully protected' then even n95s aren't effective. a measurable % reduction is just that, and in a high rate, repeat exposure situation, recipient barriers can only do so much. but it's not nothing. just like vaccines 'still let you get sick, so they don't work!', the whole messaging and expectation is a big part of the problem.
Also with masks, the problem started with the flip when we learned covid actually was airborne vs what was thought at the start. people lost trust because 'we lied to them about needing masks', when actually it _did_ start where we thought only medico's need good masks because only in certain procedures (e.g., intubation) did it aerosolize.
Messaging about in-progress learning created bad perception from a public that was (still is) very receptive to accusations of malfeasance. but i still haven't seen the accusations actually hold up.
N95 are greater than 95%effective. Most people would agree that they are effective. Cloth masks were at best half that. While something is better than nothing that is certainly not what a reasonable person would assume when public health professional say the will help and are effective. Further, it later was shown via messages that Dr Fauci knew this and later admitted to it but he didnt believe the public could handle the truth. My point is the public health community is suffering from public distrust, whether you believe it is deserved or not. The solution is complete transparency and consistency in transparency. If you aren’t sure says so. We will likely never agree.
"My point is the public health community is suffering from public distrust, whether you believe it is deserved or not. The solution is complete transparency and consistency in transparency. If you aren’t sure says so. "
I do fully agree with that.
I think there are just inherent limits to human altruism.
My point is if you are learning say so. If you’re not sure say so. Don’t state a policy based on effectiveness and then tell us “we can’t handle the truth.” That is definitely not transparent. We will probably never agree on this.
Washington state had 14 whooping cough cases last year to date. Presently 600+ whooping cough and chicken pox. I think the attitude is childhood disease, must not be serious. This opinion is likely from vaccinated adults/parents who never had the disease. Old enough to have had ALL of them, and they aren't fun!
With bird flu spreading, vaccine policy and development are so important to public health.
I am still waiting on the nasal vaccine for Covid that prevents you from being infected with Covid versus the current "vaccines" which mitigate the disease once you have it.
I am not wealthy enough to travel to India.
I am glad that I am retiring to a state that is low on handing out exceptions to vaccines.
With Trump it will all get worse when nonexperts are given authority over policy.
Mississippi now has a religious exemption for vaccines. We have been number one in vaccine compliance for years because we had no exemptions. The policy is that if you claim religious exemption, you must make an appt at the health department for them to inform you about vaccines and watch a short film.
Thanks! Seems that map is out of date with New York too. Will try to find something more recent!
I can see an impending attack on vaccinology focusing more on distribution than on continued R&D and manufacturing. The latter, of course, are within the fabric of entrepreneurialism. Distribution fits into the social aspect of health care access (redistribution): decreasing/elimination of cost-sharing subsidies in Obamacare, diminishing Medicaid availability, removal of cost-sharing protection from vaccinations (et al. preventive care), banning of vaccine mandates except for specified businesses.
The Red-state approach: schedule an appointment with your PCP to receive whatever vaccinations—probably without insurance coverage.
First approach (work-around) by the epidemiologists--to start obtaining private funding for nation-wide free vaccine clinics (maybe start with Federally Qualified Healthcare Centers).
The thought of erecting barriers to life- and health-saving vaccines really gets my goat!
I am a board certified pediatrician, father, grandfather and former Commissioner of public health in Texas.
Are vaccines perfect? No, but name me one thing in this world that is.
Have vaccines saved the lives of millions and averted the tragedy of childhood death that stalked the human race for millennia on end? A Resounding Heck Yeah!
I'm gonna stop here 'cause you know where I'm coming from.
As I have posted before on this topic, I am contacting my representatives in Congress - especially my Senators and pleading - PLEADING - with them to refuse to confirm members of the Trump administration who present a risk to public health and thereby literally threaten the lives of my grandchildren.
If you are similarly inclined, pull out all the rhetorical stops - but be civil along the way. Having worked in state government for 14 years, I have both abiding respect for ALL elected officials (that is our system) and more practically, your job is to persuade, not to irk. Don't make it easy for them to stop listening, stop taking you seriously.
We must be both realistic and optimistic. If enough of us speak up, the threats to the common good will evaporate. Why? Because Trump's loosey-goosey style of campaigning means he says lots of stuff intended to get him in office and run ideas up the flagpole to see who salutes, but he (cunningly) knows he can ignore those musings if the price of fulfillment is too high.
Make a stink. It will make a difference.
On a more optimistic note, you observed that the large majority of people support vaccines. Given that every administration wants to be popular, including the incoming US administration, it may be best to wait and see what particular proposals come forward.