Your votes are in from Monday! We had a tie on your preferred topic for this week’s deep dive between a bird flu (H5N1) update and the implications of RFK Jr. going after ACIP.
In the veterinary community there is more concern for additional reasons. A VERY WIDE RANGE OF MAMMALS is getting infected. Some are companion animals, especially cats which are especially vulnerable and which die excruciating deaths from brain and lung infection.
So, people with pets are becoming increasingly aware that they need to avoid raw pet foods and unpasteurized dairy products.
Just as bad are that common household mammal pests are turning up infected, including a widening array of rodents; most recently black rats have joined some mice which can take up residence in homes and businesses.
And never forget the population (and potentially genetic variability) dent that this disease is causing for a number of mammalian species which are already at risk.
The below link is a list that is ONLY of U.S. domestic and wild mammals infected in non-lab settings. There are others which have been infected in other nations including rare animals dying in places trying to repopulate them, and donkeys in Egypt and horses in Mongolia, and species infected only in lab settings.
Would H5N1 be transmissible through undercooked eggs? E.g., should people who prefer sunny-side-up or over easy eggs be advised to thoroughly cook eggs for the time being rather than having runny yolks?
Technically yes, but poultry doesn't lay eggs if they are sick (or dead). So it's not a big concern. The poultry industry has been dealing with H5N1 for a long time, so their biosecurity is top notch.
They get infected mainly from gastrointestinal spread but also respiratory from chickens around them before they die. These operations are very close quarters
Bird flu is typically fatal to chickens within 48 hours of exposure. That is why culling is done fast, hopefully before neighboring barns are infected. It spreads very rapidly. A month or three ago i read of a farm where people awoke to carnage because it had not been spotted early.
Wild birds and their droppings are usually implicated, especially ducks and geese which can be infected for longer before dying so have more opportunity to cause spread.
There are some people wondering about non-avian reservoirs which might pose risks to the birds, about workers who are exposed to birds at multiple locations and might skip safety protocols, and a few are even wondering about possible aerosol routes and if those are possible.
I would be interested in learning more about its impact on dogs and any subsequent transmission to humans. We have a dog who unfortunately has the gross habit of dining on droppings. We do our best to distract him but the local park is covered in goose poop at times…
Hi, small animal veterinarian in clinical practice here.
At this time we aren’t really concerned about spread to dogs. That said the date on hunting dogs (ie dogs chewing on dead birds) bears watching. Eating raw poultry/unpasteurized dairy (ie raw food) is probably a risk for exposure as well.
Where we are concerned is cats. There have been feline deaths from H5N1. Currently as I understand it, the risks for cats are exposure to cows, people who work with dairy cattle, exposure to poultry/people who work with poultry, hunting birds, raw food, and unpasteurized dairy.
For those interested in aspects of the veterinary concerns this site is by a retired USDA influenza expert. I was first introduced to it by a European Human Public Health expert in his nation’s national department:
Hi. I was wondering if you have heard anything about the two children in Cambodia the allegedly died of Bird Flu? I saw a post about it and wondered if there was anyway to verify. Thanks for being a great source for health information for everyone.
Looks like Elon and the gang wants to continue FEMA (Flock Emergency Management Agency) to the tune of $400MILLION while bringing FEMA for humans (Federal Emergency Management Agency) to $0.00.
Thank you for presenting the facts about H5N1 as known and advice on moving forward. Many of our neighbors are hunters. I plan to share your advice on how to protect themselves and their dogs.
As for importing eggs as a solution to the scarcity and high price of eggs, I wonder what other nations are experiencing similar effects of H5N1 contagion in domestic flocks and cows.
Why is it that this is affecting the price of eggs and not the price of chicken? I haven't been paying that close attention to chicken prices but since no one is talking about it I assume this isn't affecting the price of chicken to the extent that is eggs. Rotisserie chickens at Costco are still pretty cheap. I would assume that if flocks of birds raised for meat get sick, that those flocks would be culled too.
If I had to guess I'd say that egg laying chickens live a long time, while fryers are harvested after a short time, so they have less time to get exposed.
I had been wondering the same thing, and i find your common sense answer appealing. It may well be why. Time will hopefully tell. Current large farm varieties of chickens and turkeys are genetically chosen for rapidly laying down muscle, especially on the chest for turkeys. There has been a lot written about how many of these birds lay down too much muscle too rapidly for their skeletons to manage the weight and turkeys especially suffer since their legs and backs can not keep up with the burden nor with the toppling. We are currently talking just months with many of the industrial farm poultry birds from egg to table.
In the veterinary community there is more concern for additional reasons. A VERY WIDE RANGE OF MAMMALS is getting infected. Some are companion animals, especially cats which are especially vulnerable and which die excruciating deaths from brain and lung infection.
So, people with pets are becoming increasingly aware that they need to avoid raw pet foods and unpasteurized dairy products.
Just as bad are that common household mammal pests are turning up infected, including a widening array of rodents; most recently black rats have joined some mice which can take up residence in homes and businesses.
And never forget the population (and potentially genetic variability) dent that this disease is causing for a number of mammalian species which are already at risk.
The below link is a list that is ONLY of U.S. domestic and wild mammals infected in non-lab settings. There are others which have been infected in other nations including rare animals dying in places trying to repopulate them, and donkeys in Egypt and horses in Mongolia, and species infected only in lab settings.
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/livestock-poultry-disease/avian/avian-influenza/hpai-detections/mammals
The number of reservoirs where variants can arise is very large. Many species remain untested.
Excellent summary and analysis.
What do you make of the decision to cancel the annual flu vaccine panel?
Will be commenting on that on Monday!
On the issue of flu vaccines, can American manufacturers get guidance from Canadian vaccine committee?
This is all very helpful information. Thank you for researching and being on top of these issues.
Very helpful, thank you
Would H5N1 be transmissible through undercooked eggs? E.g., should people who prefer sunny-side-up or over easy eggs be advised to thoroughly cook eggs for the time being rather than having runny yolks?
Technically yes, but poultry doesn't lay eggs if they are sick (or dead). So it's not a big concern. The poultry industry has been dealing with H5N1 for a long time, so their biosecurity is top notch.
is poultry product screening common? or is it generally only testing birds in the brood?
Then why are all their chickens getting sick?
They get infected mainly from gastrointestinal spread but also respiratory from chickens around them before they die. These operations are very close quarters
My response was to the claim that their biosecurity is top notch. Apparently it isn't good enough.
Mike, you can find info on that question in
https://hogvet51.substack.com/p/h5n1-time-for-the-next-shoe-to-drop
Bird flu is typically fatal to chickens within 48 hours of exposure. That is why culling is done fast, hopefully before neighboring barns are infected. It spreads very rapidly. A month or three ago i read of a farm where people awoke to carnage because it had not been spotted early.
Wild birds and their droppings are usually implicated, especially ducks and geese which can be infected for longer before dying so have more opportunity to cause spread.
There are some people wondering about non-avian reservoirs which might pose risks to the birds, about workers who are exposed to birds at multiple locations and might skip safety protocols, and a few are even wondering about possible aerosol routes and if those are possible.
I would be interested in learning more about its impact on dogs and any subsequent transmission to humans. We have a dog who unfortunately has the gross habit of dining on droppings. We do our best to distract him but the local park is covered in goose poop at times…
Hi, small animal veterinarian in clinical practice here.
At this time we aren’t really concerned about spread to dogs. That said the date on hunting dogs (ie dogs chewing on dead birds) bears watching. Eating raw poultry/unpasteurized dairy (ie raw food) is probably a risk for exposure as well.
Where we are concerned is cats. There have been feline deaths from H5N1. Currently as I understand it, the risks for cats are exposure to cows, people who work with dairy cattle, exposure to poultry/people who work with poultry, hunting birds, raw food, and unpasteurized dairy.
Hope this helps.
Thank you!!
What is the risk this summer to swimming in lakes with large populations of geese and waterfowl?
For those interested in aspects of the veterinary concerns this site is by a retired USDA influenza expert. I was first introduced to it by a European Human Public Health expert in his nation’s national department:
https://hogvet51.substack.com/p/h5n1-time-for-the-next-shoe-to-drop
Hi. I was wondering if you have heard anything about the two children in Cambodia the allegedly died of Bird Flu? I saw a post about it and wondered if there was anyway to verify. Thanks for being a great source for health information for everyone.
Looks like Elon and the gang wants to continue FEMA (Flock Emergency Management Agency) to the tune of $400MILLION while bringing FEMA for humans (Federal Emergency Management Agency) to $0.00.
Katelyn, what about the issues with cats within the cycle of infection either as a carrier or as a victim.
Just north of that map: https://inspection.canada.ca/en/animal-health/terrestrial-animals/diseases/reportable/avian-influenza/latest-bird-flu-situation
WOW! Thank you for that. They go into symptoms in various infected animals, how a dog got it from a dead goose, even insect studies:
https://inspection.canada.ca/en/animal-health/terrestrial-animals/diseases/reportable/avian-influenza/animals-susceptible-h5n1-hpai
Nice there is concern for animal and animal feeders but what about stopping the development of HUMAN vaccine against H5N1?
Thank you for presenting the facts about H5N1 as known and advice on moving forward. Many of our neighbors are hunters. I plan to share your advice on how to protect themselves and their dogs.
As for importing eggs as a solution to the scarcity and high price of eggs, I wonder what other nations are experiencing similar effects of H5N1 contagion in domestic flocks and cows.
Why is it that this is affecting the price of eggs and not the price of chicken? I haven't been paying that close attention to chicken prices but since no one is talking about it I assume this isn't affecting the price of chicken to the extent that is eggs. Rotisserie chickens at Costco are still pretty cheap. I would assume that if flocks of birds raised for meat get sick, that those flocks would be culled too.
If I had to guess I'd say that egg laying chickens live a long time, while fryers are harvested after a short time, so they have less time to get exposed.
That's a reasonable explanation.
https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safety/safe-food-handling-and-preparation/poultry/chicken-farm-table
https://www.purinamills.com/chicken-feed/education/detail/when-do-chickens-start-laying-eggs#:~:text=Many%20hens%20lay%20their%20first,lay%20strong%20and%20stay%20strong.
I had been wondering the same thing, and i find your common sense answer appealing. It may well be why. Time will hopefully tell. Current large farm varieties of chickens and turkeys are genetically chosen for rapidly laying down muscle, especially on the chest for turkeys. There has been a lot written about how many of these birds lay down too much muscle too rapidly for their skeletons to manage the weight and turkeys especially suffer since their legs and backs can not keep up with the burden nor with the toppling. We are currently talking just months with many of the industrial farm poultry birds from egg to table.
Occam's razor strikes again!